solidsnake Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 i saw a neat stage on jojo's site where the shooter runs to the front of the stage retrieves his gun and backs out of the stage engaging targets . i was hoping to utilize this rather innovative looking aspect to a stage or too at a local weekend match . anybody else try this? did it work? was it safe? any pearls of wisdom welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 29, 2003 Share Posted March 29, 2003 If that is the video clip that I am thinking about...it puts the shooter real close to the 180. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Target placement is critical ---- I really enjoy these stages once in a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 "Back out" stages are the most "realistic" of all, and I personally love them. In fact, I designed one for the 1998 IPSC Level IV European Championships in Greece and it was very well received. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solidsnake Posted March 30, 2003 Author Share Posted March 30, 2003 i agreee that backing out stages have a high potential for fun . however, besides target placement what other tips do you suggest to enhance and maximize safety. in one other match we created "no retreat lines" for stages that required forward and potential backward movement so that tagets had to be engaged before crossing it, to avoid running into the following ro . but i can't see how tha can be done while backing out of a stage without the great potential of tripping over a fault line . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 Do not, under any circumctances, place charge lines on the ground in a "backing out" COF. It's one thing when they're in your field of view running forward, but they're very dangerous behind the competitor. In fact, go the extra mile to ensure the range surface to be traversed by the competitor is as smooth as the proverbial "baby's bottom". And you need an experienced (and light-footed) RO on the timer. BTW, you need to fix your avatar. Maybe you can still see it because it's stored in your computer cache, but there's just a red "x" there for the rest of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted March 30, 2003 Share Posted March 30, 2003 On Grauffel's Video, he turns his strong hand upside down and runs forward while holding the gun downrange when running what should be backwards. He uses the aforementioned technique to run forward. Very impressive. SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 I have seen several backwards stages run, and my only problem is RO'ing them. If you keep enough distance to be out of the way, you are not close enough to be usefull. Too much of your attention has to be on where you are going, which is 180 degrees from where the shooter is. If you can explain how to properly RO such a stage, I am ready to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 The clubs I routinely shoot at won't allow such a stage; it'll never get past the safety committees. If you make such a stage, make it such that there's no reason for anybody to ever need to or benefit from sprinting uprange. Eric Grauffel may know how to do it safely, but not the rest of us who have never done anything of the sort. Always have some targets for shooters to engage while moving backwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 The River City Shooters in San Antonio have run stages like this a couple times for their big matches-- with a twist.. They have a track made of 2x4 and the shooter sits in a cart and scoots themselves backwards ala Fred Flintstone. There are bars on the cart such that the shooter can't break the 180, and with sufficient targets, the RO doesn't get run over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted March 31, 2003 Share Posted March 31, 2003 The best way to minimise the competitor's rearward ""backing up" speed is to have as many targets as possible visible from each port and each target should only be visible from one port. In other words, the competitor should not be able to stand in the middle and engage a whole bunch of targets from one spot. If a competitor can face uprange (with this gun pointed downrange) and run like the wind, this also means the target placement is not good. In a stage like this, you can't afford to be "economical" with vision barriers. The idea is to create a stage where the best strategy is for the competitor to walk steadily backwards while continually engaging targets. If it's done correctly, these "backup" stages are fun & safe, and the RO doesn't need to be an Olympian! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaman Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 would a more narrow passage way (than the one pictured above) prevent the breaking of the 180? that way you couldn't swing your blaster unless you got to a port to engage targets that are safely down range. subsequently the RO behind the shooter has the benefit to knowing where the shooter will pause (or slow for those more skilled than i) at the portal, and then safely retreat to the next portal. the construction material would need to be netting of some sort so that the RO could visually monitor hand and pistol movement if the shooter breaks the plane of the walls. overall lotsa work equals lotsa fun, if done right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 IDPA clubs routinely have shooters retreating while they engage targets. For those people who like to get a bit of self-defense practice while having fun with the games, it's a great idea. Without repeating all of the excellent preceding comments, I think they can be done safely with little difficulty. I would make the actual shooting challenges simple so the shooter has less to worry about as he/she retreats, however. That way it's a bit easier for them to concentrate on moving safely while engaging the targets mostly on autopilot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luiz Francisco Ramos Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 No! Backing up is very dangerious, especialy is local matchs when we have a lot of begginers. Don´t need... Ramos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulW Posted April 22, 2003 Share Posted April 22, 2003 No, no, no...Backing up stages are great and can be done safely as long as the stage designing is cautious with the target setup. Use a little common sense and have fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasag93 Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 As much fun as this would be to shoot(backing out stage) I feel that you are asking for trouble with new shooter. I have to many new and inexerienced shooters to try this. I forsee a disaster with a back out stage at my local club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 I've shot many "back-up" stages. Actually at a Washington State Singlestack Classic a few years ago, they actually had a stage called "Back-Up" (sponsored by, you guessed it, AMT) that required you to moved backwards through the entire stage - four different shooting positions. I think I came in, like, fourth on that stage. I could never understand why people were freaking out just looking at the stage, at the very concept. It didn't seem like a big deal to me. And it wasn't a big deal to shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 mentioned earlier, but for those of us who play both games (USPSA & IDPA), the IDPA scenarios that have this provide a great deal of good experience if you see it elsewhere...just like strong hand or weak hand shooting. i feel it gives me a slight advanatage to either go backwards on a stage or shoot s/w hand...the other competitors are already beating themselves on that stage with the moaning and groaning.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 In IDPA it's even a part of the classifier match! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwalker Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 I like "backing-up" stages. But, can I suggest that, for a "backing-up" stage, the COF description and briefing should explicitly include a reminder about the 180 rule. We had a "backing-up" stage recently and a first-time shooter (a young policeman) swung around and swept the audience. Of course he was instantly DQ'd. Which was unfortunate. The briefing did not specifically warn about the possibility of breaking the 180. Regards Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyaboutguns Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 Liking a type of stage design is not sufficient reason to include it in a match. Backing up (going up-range by the shooter) will eventually result in someone turning around by reflex reaction. Couple that with an RO in the wrong place at the wrong time, or an AD, and the prescription for catastrophe for our sport will become reality. At some point we must remember that our sport is a recreational activity for the vast majority of competitors and ROs, as such by prudence the courses of fire MUST take into account the abilities, skills and judgemental faculties of the gamut of shooters from beginner to GM, and the ROs from unskilled to the highest level. Make courses of fire challenging, but make them as accident/foolproof from a safety standpoint as humanly possible. Backing up does not meet safety criteria for stage design, regardless of legality under IPSC rules. Also, Common Sense is not so common. Relying on common sense, surface contour, competitor experience, or any other factor to avoid an unsafe condition is flawed reasoning, and in the U.S. will quickly result in a jury verdict of reckless negligence. If anyone wants to lose their life's work to a jury award, then design, R.O., officiate or otherwise involve themself in a Backing Up stage that results in injury or death to anyone. Ron Sparks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 I don't think it is any more dangerous than running up/down a ramp, duckwalking through a tunnel, or a variety of other challenges that we face while shooting. While I might be inclined to put in a 180 warning I don't think it is really necessary. Shooters are supposed to know that they shouldn't do certain things and you can't put up a reminder for all of them. -ld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 cag, We can't assume our shooters are idiots and we're going to "protect them from themselves," either. At some point we have to start treating people like adults who can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time. Safety, God yes. Paranoia and condescension, no. A warning about the 180 on the course description, probably reinforced by a verbal reminder from the RO just before LAMR, should be more than sufficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 We had a COF at out last match where some shooters chose to shoot a specific array last which means they had to retreat 10yds. The whole thing gave me the heeby-jeebies..... Those who ran backwards, although they did cover LESS ground, they didn't save any time 'cause they were too worried/pre-occupied with keeping the gun pointed downrange. It really slowed them down, but they looked cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyaboutguns Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 Duane: What benefit is added by backing up range during a course of fire? Answer, nothing. What hazards are added? Injury or death. We are engaged in an activity with life threatening consequences, and a simple DQ is not an answer, nor a satisfactory rationale for such a COF. Ron Sparks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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