breaking 180

[kz45]

I am a new RO [almost] I took the class 2 weeks ago, haven't got my test results back yet, anyway this is my question.

Wed. night practise i was running a new shooter, he is 12 or 13 years old, broke the 180. I yelled muzzle and reached out

and pushed his arms and gun back down range, I know your not supposed to touch the shooter but I couldn't help it.

Same thing happened today, same reaction from me. Am I too close to the shooter, how can solve this problem, it just

seams like the right thing to do. thanks in advance for helping me become a better ro

[toowide]

If a shooter breaks the 180. the RO should stop the shooter by saying STOP and placing your hand on his or her shoulder (that's what I do anyway) and then be disqualified. Even if it is practice, the shooter should be stopped and told why(simulated DQ). As far as "assisting" the shooter in keeping his or her weapon pointing downrange, don't stop. Noone wants to look down the barrel of a gun.

Edited August 5, 2007 by toowide

[mactiger]

You should yell STOP, not muzzle. You should not touch the competitor. Arm, shoulder, whatever--there is no reason to touch them. It's a hard habit to break, but it's never a good idea to touch a person with a loaded gun, especially if you are going to grab their arm. The natural inclination is to tighten the grip, and that's not a good thing, especially if their finger is on the trigger. Voice control, not physical control.

Troy

[JThompson]

If he/she was going to sweep someone, or close to it, I would, yell stop and place a hand to prevent more movement in the unsafe direction. This doesn't mean you HAVE to make contact, only prevent movement in the unsafe direction. I don't care what anyone says, I would never allow a gun to sweep someone if I could prevent it! What you don't want to do is make a bad situation worse. The instinct on a shoulder touch is to turn.

It should be made known I am NOT a certed RO.

I have however, shot for many many years with shooters who have never held a gun before and it was sometimes mandatory to contact them. Hopefully, in our sport, such extreme measures don't have to be taken. It's more likely at the club level where you see virgin, or very new shooters.

JT

Edited August 5, 2007 by JThompson

[LPatterson]

As an NRA pistol instructor we were taught to never touch the student as they tend to turn the body (with the gun) to see why you touched them. This is like the driver that has to look at their passenger to say something to them.

[BDH]

I understand the reasons not to touch the competitor, BUT I sure as hell wish that someone had blocked a competitors gun from coming around and pointing directly at the center of my chest a couple of years ago in Barry. Of course this was a flagrant violation as he probably broke the 210 or maybe even 220...

[38superman]

I took the level 1 RO course a few months ago.

My understanding was that under normal circumstances, you should never touch the shooter.

Voice commands are always the preferred method to control the shooter.

However, if the shooter has broken the 180 and is turning the gun toward spectators, it is perfectly permissible to use your hands to block further movement.

Tony

Edited August 6, 2007 by 38superman

[Heavy Metal Only]

I took the level 1 RO course a few months ago.

My understanding was that under normal circumstances, you should never touch the shooter.

Voice commands are always the preferred method to control the shooter.

However, if the shooter has broken the 180 and is turning the gun toward spectators, it is perfectly permissible to use your hands to block further movement.

Tony

Whether you are to touch a shooter or not , I have seen other r.o.s stop shooters from turning around by touch and it seems effective while yelling stop. I would simply block the shooter how ever I could, I would rather get shot than to have another competitor get hurt, or god forbid a spectator get shot. As an R.O. Its your responsibility to run that stage as safe as possible.

[Kingman]

when you yell stop you can move forward and extend your arms in the direction as you see it coming. At that point you are placing a limit to the distance the firearm can travel. If the stop is not heard(as in my father who is almost deaf and with muffs on can't hear hardly a damn thing) then they will contact you realizing something is wrong. Also by moving toward them(not the gun) you will be noticed in their vision.

[Flatland Shooter]

Many years ago I watched as the range owner was instructing a "newbie" on safe firearm handling and shooting. The shooter, with the gun hot and pointed downrange, turned to face the instructor when the instructor said something. As the gun came around with the shooter, the instructor yelled "STOP" and put his hand up to block further rearward movement of the gun.

Just as the instructor's hand touched the shooter's forearm, the gun went off.

Per the pissed off instructor, the shooter more than broke the 180 even before the AD.

Per the pissed off shooter, the instructor hit her arm causing the firearm to discharge.

Neither were USPSA shooters, but from that point on I've made it a point to NOT touch a shooter with a hot gun. Break the 180 and you might lose an eardrum, but I will not lay a hand on you.

Bill

[JThompson]

I understand the reasons not to touch the competitor, BUT I sure as hell wish that someone had blocked a competitors gun from coming around and pointing directly at the center of my chest a couple of years ago in Barry. Of course this was a flagrant violation as he probably broke the 210 or maybe even 220...

That's pretty much my point... There is no way in hell, I would have let it happen if I could physically block the shooters turn. If it gets to the point where the shooter is going to sweep a crowd, or me, I feel, you have no choice, and must block that movement. There is no perfect answer. In some cases you have to take extraordinary measures. In most cases a STOP should suffice, but not all. It's your job to keep everyone safe, even if that puts you at risk. That is part of the duty you have as an RO. imho

Edited August 6, 2007 by JThompson

[Buzzdraw]

There are tell-tale signs that a shooter is about to break the 180; experience will tell you what to look for (much of time). As a RO, you must be constantly alert to the gun's movement as well it's next likely movement. Listen to your instincts and be ready for an errant muzzle. Prevention of a problem is best.

As far as physically controlling a shooter, your open hand on his upper arm (above the elbow) gives great leverage to preventing further backward motion. Note "open" in sentence. If you grab for their forearm or gun hand, the chance the shooter will reflexively contract muscles (and fire the gun) is considerably greater, especially if you tighten your grip on said appendage. Physical control is only a backup means, if your voice controls are ineffective. IMO, physical control (I strongly prefer controlling the upper arm) should be used only if someone is about to be endangered by the sweeping muzzle. If no once is about to be endangered, then contact with shooter is to be avoided (but be ready to do so if errant motion continues).

It becomes a crap-shoot of whether to go for gun/forearm or not, if that is all that is available to control. There is a risk contracting muscles will reflexively fire gun. I have used an open hand to push a forearm away when the gun was headed towards the gallery and voice wasn't working. Note "open" hand and "push".

The upper arm control method is useful for the new shooter "gun at toes" arm dangle at end of stage scenario. When the shooter doesn't holster, but instead lets gun arm straighten out towards the ground he's about to dangle. He may also follow with the fore/aft arm swing. Be alert to watch for this syndrome with new shooters.

There is a reason I always keep the electronic timer in my hand opposite the shooter's gun hand; the above paragraphs are it.

[EZ Bagger]

--there is no reason to touch them. It's a hard habit to break, but it's never a good idea to touch a person with a loaded gun...

Troy

Not being argumentative, but I do have questions on this...

Never a good idea? I have at least one buddy who might respectfully disagree...as he ended up looking down the muzzle of a gun. Does this mean he was too far from the shooter? If we are close enough to touch but don't, should we to move out of the way and let them keep swinging around? Should we stand our ground but risk touching the shooter?

Thanks for your input.

[racerba]

Per the pissed off instructor, the shooter more than broke the 180 even before the AD.

Per the pissed off shooter, the instructor hit her arm causing the firearm to discharge.

They could both be right. Either way, she broke the 180 and the AD was well before the 270.

[A-shot]

I saw a 240 break last week in my general direction...DQ that ass coz he didn't learn the first time!! By too close, do you mean he's your son or are you standing too close to him physically?? If he was your son, DQ him and make him bag and observe. Age does NOT matter!!! Save the coaching for down time so he can perform. I know I'm being safety nazi too, but he shouldn't be on the field yet if he cannot safely handle his weapon. 2nd violation confirms this...

Edited August 6, 2007 by A-shot

[JThompson]

There are tell-tale signs that a shooter is about to break the 180; experience will tell you what to look for (much of time). As a RO, you must be constantly alert to the gun's movement as well it's next likely movement. Listen to your instincts and be ready for an errant muzzle. Prevention of a problem is best.

As far as physically controlling a shooter, your open hand on his upper arm (above the elbow) gives great leverage to preventing further backward motion. Note "open" in sentence. If you grab for their forearm or gun hand, the chance the shooter will reflexively contract muscles (and fire the gun) is considerably greater, especially if you tighten your grip on said appendage. Physical control is only a backup means, if your voice controls are ineffective. IMO, physical control (I strongly prefer controlling the upper arm) should be used only if someone is about to be endangered by the sweeping muzzle. If no once is about to be endangered, then contact with shooter is to be avoided (but be ready to do so if errant motion continues).

It becomes a crap-shoot of whether to go for gun/forearm or not, if that is all that is available to control. There is a risk contracting muscles will reflexively fire gun. I have used an open hand to push a forearm away when the gun was headed towards the gallery and voice wasn't working. Note "open" hand and "push".

The upper arm control method is useful for the new shooter "gun at toes" arm dangle at end of stage scenario. When the shooter doesn't holster, but instead lets gun arm straighten out towards the ground he's about to dangle. He may also follow with the fore/aft arm swing. Be alert to watch for this syndrome with new shooters.

There is a reason I always keep the electronic timer in my hand opposite the shooter's gun hand; the above paragraphs are it.

I don't think I could have expressed it any better than you have here. Reading this is exactly the way I would handle the situation. When I said, "blocking" that falls in line with what you said. I wouldn't grab, but place a hand as to prevent more movement.

Well, put and thanks for the clarity of thought.

JT

Edited August 6, 2007 by JThompson

[CaseyJ]

The easiest way to block the shooter if needed, is to use an open palm on his or her elbow. The reason for this is if you grab a shooter on the arm it has the possibility of touching a tendon that controls a finger. you do the math.

[kz45]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and idea's I'll have to start picking up on the subtle signs and react faster.

Troy teaches not to touch, so this is what I'm going to try. Every shooter is a teacher, I just have to watch and learn.

kz

[JFD]

I would never say "never" when it comes to this subject.

I've shot in outlaw outlaw matches where there were young and/or really new shooters who wanted to turn around and look at me at the stop command. In every case the gun moved along with their head. I've tried to use my best judgement when it comes to physical contact, but in every case I had a hand up to block them if necessary. A couple of times I've used it.

So far a simple open-handed block has been fine to give them that extra split second to realize what's going on.

[ima45dv8]

When I took my first RO Level I class, grateful that John Amidon was the instructor (a source I trust), he covered this very thing. His position was that grabbing a shooter by the forearm could cause a discharge of the firearm. To illustrate he had everyone raise their own forearm off the table (elbow on the desktop) and grab themselves, and watch the miniscule reaction their trigger finger had to the compression of the muscles in their forearm. It was enough to convince me.

Along the same lines as Troy's response, it's better to use a flat-hand deflection move (if anything).

I admire the folks who are ready to take a bullet to protect the gallery, but I'm not sure I have the stones for that. I hope I never have to test that theory. I'd rather prevent the incident if I can.

[racerba]

...and grab themselves,...

What sort of a class was that?!?!

[38superman]

So far a simple open-handed block has been fine to give them that extra split second to realize what's going on.

Open-handed block is fine ........ then grasp the wrist of the strong hand and strike the elbow.

This can be followed by a roundhouse kick to the throat or if you prefer, a groin kick.

Hmmm.

Never mind.

I never should have read that Texas Ninja thread.

Tls

Edited August 7, 2007 by 38superman

[Merlin Orr]

So far a simple open-handed block has been fine to give them that extra split second to realize what's going on.

Open-handed block is fine ........ then grasp the wrist of the strong hand and strike the elbow.

This can be followed by a roundhouse kick to the throat or if you prefer, a groin kick.

Hmmm.

Never mind.

I never should have read that Texas Ninja thread.

Tls

I saw this demo by Steven Segal. Seemed to work well and left a lasting impression on the shooter.

[Jim Norman]

How close to the shooter should you stand?

So close that they cannot swing past you.

I was ROing a very experianced shooter a couple years back. T1 was 20 degrees tot he right of the start, T2 was at the 175 (85) degree mark to the right, T# was to the left around a wall. Knowing hte shooter to be quick and trusting (too much) to his experiance level, I gave him room to back up to make the turn to the left. Well, he backed up and made a turn that ended up tot he left, however it involved a full 180 degree sweep of the crowd. No one will be allowed that much room again as long as I can keep up with them.

Thankfully all that was required was a change of skivvies and we went on with the day. Shooter was obviously DQ'd. Turns out that he had a very ill or recently deceasec relative and his mind was not on the game. (Mine either I suppose, since I allowed hime the rom to screw up)

So, word to the wise. EVERYONE and ANYONE CAN AND WILL screw the pooch some day. DOn't give them the room.

Jim

[ima45dv8]

...and grab themselves,...

What sort of a class was that?!?!

I can't tell you that. The names have been changed to protect the innocent.