focus on front sight or target?

[sps]

Hi all,

I post my question here because I’m a standard division shooter.

I used to shoot with one eye closed for several years but after several months of practicing I am now shooting with both eyes open.

Thing is, I noticed that when I shoot I have a clear vision of the target and a bit “fade” view of the front sight. I was reading past threads here in the forum and I understand that the “right” thing to do is to have it the other way round.

In the last few months I have been working on it but I noticed that it takes me more time to get the correct clear sight picture and I feel it does not work for me as good as having the clear target view. Just for the record, I can call my shots and see the front sight goes up and down even when the focus is on the target and not on the sight.

Should I keep trying to have this “clear front sight view” or just go back to what worked well for me? Do you know of any top standard shooters who shoot this way i.e. clear target and the FS at the background?

Thanks

Edited June 30, 2007 by sps

[bigbrowndog]

yes, several shooters shoot clear target, fuzzy front site. I can't recall who's book (Saul Kirsch, i think)it was but, that technique was stated as one of the little secrets used by alot of very good shooters. I felt the same way you did, and never really shared my "secret" thinking that it was incorrect, until a friend showed me Saul's book. I've shot iron's that way since I was a youngster. However i've found that for shooting a rifle precisely with irons(AR) at distance, more "visual acquity, is needed on the front post"......per Mr. Tubb.

Trapr

[Crusher]

Depends on target distance for irons.

[herky]

Glad to see that I'm not the only one who uses this method. Sixty one year old eyes don't allow me the quick change of focus necessay to see both the front sight and the target clearly. Some how it seems better, for me, to see a clear target.

[Singlestack]

I moved this thread here since it is a technique question.

[G-ManBart]

If the target is 10yds away....sure, it'll work fine. Try it at 25yds or more and it's not going to work very well....forget it on something like 50yd standards.

[spartacus]

same problem here, i thought i was weird or something. I usually focus on targets within 15yds, and sights if further away, seems to work pretty good for me.

Edited July 2, 2007 by spartacus

[ATMester]

I look forward to see what Flexmoney-Kyle has to say about this topic.

I used to look at the target, it's fast but the shots were all around, and I think I could never call my shots. They looked good but they just weren't there....

Now I work hard to see the front sight, to focus back to the front sight, it might be a little slower, but I see where my shots go and almost all my shots are A's now.

For extreme close distance target focus....but medium to long distance only the front sight focus will give me the feedback what I need.

Edited July 2, 2007 by TheHun

[Flexmoney]

I look forward to see what Flexmoney-Kyle has to say about this topic.

I've talked this one to death. Front sight focus is where it's at, IMO.

[ATMester]

I look forward to see what Flexmoney-Kyle has to say about this topic.

I've talked this one to death. Front sight focus is where it's at, IMO.

I know, but every time this subject surfaces you always make some great posts on front sight/calling shots. I was hoping...

Edited July 2, 2007 by TheHun

[Matt Griffin]

I pestered everyone about this endlessly, so let me sum up what I learned:

Depending on your visual acuity, both types of focus are needed, based on the difficulty of the shot. An important point is that a headshot at 10 yards is harder to do than a full shot at 30, so it's not necessarily distance. Also, based on your vision, shooting the blurred sight (target focus) may be more or less accurate. I'm very lucky to have excellent vision, so I can shoot target focus out to long distances, while keeping a clear sight picture. However, after 15 yards, it's still better to switch to sight focus, because when you are leaving the sights in your peripheral vision, you cannot call the shot as accurately. For churn-and-burn, where a lousy sight picture only means a margin-A/C hit instead of a Mike, then I leave my focus on the target and shoot my index, only really noticing the sight on the first shot of the string, then just confirming its return.

You should definitely default to sight focus if there is a question, try shooting some matches concentrating on only using it, and you might be surprised at how your score ramps up from the lack of Ds and Ms.

I suppose in summary, that you can get away with target focus up until the time when you actively need to be calling shots to improve; after that you have to mix it up or switch to sight focus for the accurate call. Of course folks will blast me for suggesting that you should ever be concentrating on anything but shot calling, but the fact is that when starting out, there's a few other fundamentals to get down first. Shot calling should always be your ultimate goal, however.

H.

[Paladin]

.. be aware..with target focus you do call the shoots but with less precision..since the sight lift is captured in your peripheral vision.. you can also close one eye (usually the non-dominant one) and then the sights and target are in the same visual plane so no need for sight focus change..

[benos]

It doesn't matter how many eyes you use or what you look, if you can call every shot. To keep what "calling" means simple for now, when you get done with a string or stage, you should be able to score it in your head without looking at the targets.

If looking at the front sight (on easier targets) "slows you down" - if you give it some time and work with it some more, it won't. There is an art to "seeing everything," and if there's any trick it's in always keeping your eyes moving. The reason "it takes longer" is that your vision is not back on the sights by the time the sights get to the target.

If you're a TF (Target-focuser) it will take some work because you're not used to moving your focus in and out, over and over. Set up 3 IPSC targets at 10 yards, about 6 feet apart, edge to edge. Draw and shoot one shot in each head-box, left to right, then shoot them left to right again for a total of 6 shots. Score it Comstock. Repeat that drill over and over and experiment with what you see. Eventually, you should be able distinctly remember seeing each upcoming head-box as a "3-sided square outline," and the front sight razor sharp, like a square building silhouetted against the sky, for each shot.

be

[Sam]

It's been my habit, for a long time, to shoot a very soft front sight focus when the targets are close. I always did that because it seemed, "smokin' fast" and just as accurate, to do so. Hey, it must have been faster because I wasn't taking the time to look. I'm moving away from that technique now.

I'm discovering that it is too easy for me to stay fuzzy when I transition to a more difficult target. I once believed that I could not see quickly enough. Now, I understand that the seeing is there all the time. There is no start or stop to seeing, unless you believe there is.

It's like you're watching "Ghost Dog, the Way of the Samauri" and your belly starts growlin', so you get up and wander off into the kitchen to retrieve a snack. You may still hear the movie and sort of know what is going on, but the picture could go black and you wouldn't have the slightest idea what you were missing because your attention was somewhere else.

[Flexmoney]

I look forward to see what Flexmoney-Kyle has to say about this topic.

I've talked this one to death. Front sight focus is where it's at, IMO.

I know, but every time this subject surfaces you always make some great posts on front sight/calling shots. I was hoping...

Even better...you got to hear from Brian and Bonedaddy.

And, Ron Avery recently had this to say (in the dealer section here):

...

I have found myself moving away from "soft focus" shooting and staying with a harder focus on the sights in relation to the target. I find that there is very little, if any, time difference when properly trained and a world of difference in precision of shot placement. I still use soft focus for some of the closer stuff but even then, one can miss a seemingly easy shot if care isn't taken to register and maintain the relationship between target and sight while shooting reallly fast.

...

[Chris Keen]

It doesn't matter how many eyes you use or what you look, if you can call every shot. To keep what "calling" means simple for now, when you get done with a string or stage, you should be able to score it in your head without looking at the targets.

If looking at the front sight (on easier targets) "slows you down" - if you give it some time and work with it some more, it won't. There is an art to "seeing everything," and if there's any trick it's in always keeping your eyes moving. The reason "it takes longer" is that your vision is not back on the sights by the time the sights get to the target.

If you're a TF (Target-focuser) it will take some work because you're not used to moving your focus in and out, over and over.

Those last 3 posts are dead on accurate.

[cking]

If you focus on the target your point shooting, aka Bill Jordon. Basically you look across the top of your gun for a reference. It is fast, accuracy depends on how much you practice. I do it out to about 20 feet on full IPSC targets.

If I'm shooting 8 inch plates, got to find that front sight.

If you practice point shooting enough you can hit from the waist.

My favorite practice for hip shooting was two guys with 22's and beer can in a pond. Alternating shooting it as soon as it hits the water. After 500 or so rounds you are really cooking, but it fades fast.

[benos]

Since I live on a computer nowadays, I find ways to play visual games on it. My computer's key repeat rate is set to it's maximum speed, and I'm always doing a lot of work in Excel spreadsheets... Say you're clicked on a cell in a spreadsheet, and using the arrow key you want to get to another cell that's 10 - 20 cells away. I push and hold the arrow key and the selection goes racing toward the target cell. To perfectly time letting off the arrrow key so it stops dead-nuts on the target cell is really tricky. But with practice I'm getting pretty good at it. And by watching what my eyes do, I realized what I see is analogues to quick, precise target to target shooting. (Without the in-out focal plane shifts, of course.)

Stopping perfectly on the target cell is like firing the shot as soon as the sights are on target. If I keep my eyes fixed on the target cell, there's no way I can stop on it (shoot it). If I find the target cell then try to track the selection as it races toward it, who knows where it will stop. Then I noticed that when I stop right on it, there's a very specific visual process that happens. I'm making it happen visually. Which is hard to explain because it's more like I feel it with my vision. It feels just like what it felt like when I was acquiring and shooting targets quickly. Once I find the target cell and the selection is heading toward it, as the selection gets closer to the target, I'm keeping track of both the target and the moving selection until they visually fuse together.

Which is exactly what how I saw the targets and sights when shooting a Steel Challenge stage. Starting with a clear target focus, then as the sights started heading toward it, I'd find the sights while they were on the way to the target without losing track of where the target was peripherally. So by the time the sights got there, the front sight was razor sharp. Bang-call-the-shot, and repeat. When that was happening really well, it felt like I was "seeing everything." I think that was because I was always seeing something. As opposed to just seeing something now and then.

be

[benos]

Today, I set the "delay before repeat" to its lowest setting. (It had previously been set to the slightest delay, other than no delay.) Things are getting snappy. I had some pretty crisp runs in Spreadsheets.

[bkeeler]

BTT to add this. Thought it would fit well here. Pasted from IPSC Global Village.

Like I do, then you have a good point.

It is not an easy question, but I'll try to answer it the best I can.

Yes I am an open shooter but about 40% of the ammos I burn per year are done in Standard/limited.

First, for me there is no half focus on sight or target, either you focus on one or the other one.

For me the focus must be on the target, otherwise as you mention it will be hard to call your shots.

Now it comes, Do I shoot both eyes open, or one eye closed. The first answer would be: " your call, it's a shooter preference", knowing than when you reach a certain distance, most of the shooters will close 1 eye.

Now, what I personnly do:

in between 0 to 15 meters, I shoot both eyes open.

Over 15 meters, I close one eye.

If I have a tight shot with a PT under 15 meters, I will also close one eye.

Hope this helps

Sorry, I did not make it clear enough.

I shoot a standard gun with a Fiber Optic.

So I use the same focus in Open than with my standard gun. I use the front sight just like it was a dot on my open gun.

But if I was just using a regular front sight, I would probably focus on the iron sight.

the fiber on the front sight is at a certain position on your sight and it's easy then to analyse while you shoot.

With a regular front sight, let's say you don't have any point of reference, so the only way to survive is to watch ( focus ) your front sight.

I've got to go to the shot show now, I'll check out later

Still not enough clear.

So I think it's a shooter Preference.

But if you use an Optic Front Sight, then focus on your target.

Regular Front sight, focus on your sight.

Key word shooter preference?

I currently shift focus to front sight (soft focus) but on harder shots I have more focus on the front sight.

I am re-thinking this time to go back to Brian's drill Target or Sight focus.

BK

[Xfactor]

...Yes I am an open shooter but about 40% of the ammos I burn per year are done in Standard/limited.

First, for me there is no half focus on sight or target, either you focus on one or the other one.

For me the focus must be on the target, otherwise as you mention it will be hard to call your shots...

...I shoot a standard gun with a Fiber Optic.

So I use the same focus in Open than with my standard gun. I use the front sight just like it was a dot on my open gun.

But if I was just using a regular front sight, I would probably focus on the iron sight.

the fiber on the front sight is at a certain position on your sight and it's easy then to analyse while you shoot.

With a regular front sight, let's say you don't have any point of reference, so the only way to survive is to watch ( focus ) your front sight.

I don't get his explanation of treating the f/o front sight on a Limited gun like a dot on an Open gun and NOT like a regular iron front sight ... With an Open sight dot, you can focus on the target because there's only one focal point to align the sights, and it's in the same plane as the target. But just because a f/o front sight rod creates a red "dot", you still need to keep it aligned within the rear sight notch, so there are two points that need to be aligned to aim, and they're in a different plane than the target on all but close-up shots...

Maybe Eric's ability is just so far beyond mine that I can't even understand his tecnique!

Edited January 22, 2009 by Xfactor

[bkeeler]

I have heard from people that shooting an open gun for a while that it will make you a better Limited shooter.

Maybe this is why when shooting an open gun you focus on the target and when you switch back to limited you are focusing on the target.(looking through the sights but the clear focus is on the target you still see the sights but not clear)

I don't really know never shot an open gun all I have shot is iron sights.

But I do know I have shot great stages with a target focus ( I could see the holes appear in the targets. Or splatter on steel) Not that I did not see the sights but I was not focused on them(kind of look through the sights).

I guess it comes down to see what you need to see to make the shot! (it doesn't really matter what you see as long as you can make the shot)

BK

[Jake Di Vita]

The reason shooting Open makes you a better shooter is because it gives you the freedom to focus on every other aspect of the game. The fundamentals of shooting are the same whether it's a dot or iron sights.

[Dwight Stearns]

front_sight_focus.docI hope you don't mind my $.02 on this subject. About 8 or 9 months ago I wrote an article on target vs sight focus for the Marvel Custom Guns web sight. If all goes well I will attach it to this post. Feel free to disagree with it if you wish. I got thick skin.

Dwight

[Jake Di Vita]

There you have it. If you disagree, don’t take my word for it. Try watching some of the shooting shows such as Shooting USA. Pay particular attention when the camera shows a face on view of one of the world class shooters as they engage multiple targets. Watch his eyes. If both eyes are open, and you look close, you will probably see he is focusing on the targets, not the front sight.

C'mon man. I can tell you from both personal experience during shooting and from talking to the best shooters in the world...they watch their sights.

When they don't...they tend to miss. I've had a ton of cops come through my range with these same ideas....and there are a lot of bullet holes in the ceiling to prove it.

Instead of telling us what the top shooters do....email them and ask them for yourself.