Campus Shootings

[johnhurd]

"Alleged Killer", Killer will never fly in this PC society........

[outerlimits]

the price of beta mags is about to go up like gas...

[Micah]

*sigh*

Yesterday on campus I defended lawful carry more times than I cared to. Bringing up the fact that Hitler took away all the guns "For the safety of the people" right before running through Europe like shit through a goose tends to strike a nerve with even the deepest thinker.

I have come to the conclusion that even though concealed means concealed, I will continue to abide by the law. Although bringing a knife to a gunfight isn't ideal, that's what I'm going to rely on while in class.

[Odie]

All these horrible crimes and no one questions the over-prescription of various and sundry psychotropic drugs. It's always THE GUN. Never the killer. As far as Prof. Librescu goes, the Talmud has a line that says "he who saves one life saves the world entire". This man survived the Holocaust, and just day to day life in Israel, which can be trying in itself. He survived because he was needed elsewhere, and I think that was saving the students he did manage to save. His grand purpose fulfilled, he leaves as a hero, and on Holocaust memorial day. His students said he was completely calm. He knew what was his to do, and did it.

[David Sinko]

The "anti-psychotic pill poppers" are EVERYWHERE! Most people have absolutely no idea just how medicated this country really is. In my 8+ years of law enforcement, literally every other person I deal with is bi-polar, schizophrenic, ADHD or some sick combination of the above. Why is this? Because they are too damned lazy to work for a living and so they go out and find some psych doc who is all too willing to declare them nuts. The doc makes money off them, the drug companies make money off them and WE pay their disability income via SSI. Isn't this just great? And nobody thinks of the consequences of this, which is normal people who take psych meds for some make-believe disability REALLY DO BECOME INSANE! Many of your friends, associates and others who "appear normal" are pumped full of this crap and you probably don't even realize it. In fact, the acknowledged side effect of many of these drugs is SUICIDE. When you decide to kill a bunch of people before killing yourself then it becomes HOMICIDE. Few people realize just how entrenched the psych drugs are in our society and how the government goes out of its way to condone and support it.

Wait, now I remembered something... It's the GUN's fault! For a minute there I thought I was really on to something.

Dave Sinko

[AikiDale]

Ever wonder why this kind of thing never happens in a police station?

Is it because except at shift change there is never anyone there?

[bountyhunter]

*sigh*

Yesterday on campus I defended lawful carry more times than I cared to. Bringing up the fact that Hitler took away all the guns "For the safety of the people" right before running through Europe like shit through a goose tends to strike a nerve with even the deepest thinker.

I agree that this incident will be used to further curtail gun rights.

BTW, the Hitler thing is a myth. He was a bad guy and did a lot of bad things, but he didn't do that (FYI)

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcnazimyth.html

The Myth of Nazi Gun Control

[p99shooter]

The "anti-psychotic pill poppers" are EVERYWHERE!

I feel strongly enough about this to risk breaking forum rules. We can't blame "pills" or how they are prescribed any more than we can blame "guns." Being a person who recently suffered with an emotional disorder, and used common prescription medications (and prayer) to get through it, I can attest first-hand and the positive value of them. I also have a son that was evaluated for ADHD, and I can honestly say that nobody involved in the process was urging us to put him on medication.

[bountyhunter]

Ever wonder why this kind of thing never happens in a police station?

Is it because except at shift change there is never anyone there?

same reason gun stores are almost never robbed by a guy with a knife....

The "anti-psychotic pill poppers" are EVERYWHERE!

I feel strongly enough about this to risk breaking forum rules. We can't blame "pills" or how they are prescribed any more than we can blame "guns." Being a person who recently suffered with an emotional disorder, and used common prescription medications (and prayer) to get through it, I can attest first-hand and the positive value of them. I also have a son that was evaluated for ADHD, and I can honestly say that nobody involved in the process was urging us to put him on medication.

The "blame pills" aspect is making the logical faux pas of assuming that an association proves causation.

A lot of people who are disturbed take meds.

A lot of the psychos who kill are disturbed.

It does not follow that most disturbed people will be killers, nor does it follow that the medicines they are on are causing their aberrant behavior.

[carinab]

Isn't there somewhere on a 4473 that asks whether you have ever been treated by a mental health professional (or something similar)? I seem to recall something about a yes/no question about being a chemically dependent person as well... Granted all a person has to do is lie and say no because at present I'm not aware that mental health records are at all tied to the criminal justice records. I'm all about keeping government out of my personal business, but when you are committed to an institution (voluntarily or otherwise) perhaps that should generate a justice record...??? I don't know...

[FranDoc]

... but when you are committed to an institution (voluntarily or otherwise) perhaps that should generate a justice record...??? I don't know...

Institutionalization is surprisingly rare.

Brief (48-72 hours to a few days) hospitalization with subsequent outpatient follow-up is more the norm. 'Locking someone up' is incredibly expensive (frequently your tax dollars) and fraught with legal issues. Less expensive/less restrictive to move to outpatient care - with varying levels of supervision, follow-up, and restriction of the individual's rights - and 'medical management' (pills, psychotherapy).

Medical treatment records are not tied to criminal justice databases, though there may be some link between court-ordered treatment and a criminal record (I don't deal with that end of the medical system).

I, too, have spent the past couple of days fielding questions about carrying, impending restrictions, etc. Making the point about an armed/trained populace being a deterrent to violent crime is getting a surprising reception. I'm campaigning to get that pesky 'no guns' sign taken OFF the front door of the office.

[Scout454]

Consider this:

The killer shot the first two victims as a diversion and left, knowing that it would occupy the police and have them concentrated in one place. That gave him the time to be as destructive as possible at the second location.

The killer used a Glock 19 and a .22 (believe it was a Walther) and he apparently had a number of magazines.

This entire incident was well planned and executed.

[bountyhunter]

Isn't there somewhere on a 4473 that asks whether you have ever been treated by a mental health professional (or something similar)?

There sure is, I just filled one out.

I always cross my fingers and stand on one foot when I check "NO".....

Consider this:

The killer shot the first two victims as a diversion and left, knowing that it would occupy the police and have them concentrated in one place. That gave him the time to be as destructive as possible at the second location.

The killer used a Glock 19 and a .22 (believe it was a Walther) and he apparently had a number of magazines.

This entire incident was well planned and executed.

That's not the way the evidence points. He had what appears to be delusional fixations on women. He had been called for stalking twice.

The first shooting was the women who either was his girlfriend or his "believed" girlfriend.... she may never have even met him.

The RA was shot when he came to her aid.

The current theory is that the follow up shootings were for one or both reasons:

1) He failed to get the "guy" he believed had come between him and his girlfriend.

2) He wanted to kill him and others he believed had wronged him. His note said something like: "You made me do this".

It's early in the investigation, but the time lapse between the first shooting and the second is being attributed simply to the fact that he wanted to kill specific people and he waited until class commenced so all those people would be together at a known location.

It does look like some planning went into it because he bought chains and locks to secure the doors on the building.

Edited April 18, 2007 by bountyhunter

[bayoupirate]

the Killer was institutionalized in 2005.

That should have disqualified him from purchasing a firearm, but his stay at the institution was volunary so it didn't apply to the law. He would have needed to be committed to the institution involuntarily.

Anyone who is under the fantasy that gun laws prevent people from getting weapons is foolish. Illegal firearms are as easy to purchase as illegal drugs. Most people who sell one, sell the other.

TEACHERS WITH FIREARMS

As a High School Teacher, the only way I could see a teacher legally carrying or possessing a firearm on campus would involve that person being POST certified and commissioned as an officer of the local agency.

Outside of that. The choice is carry very concealed and risk your livelyhood and pension and other legal actions that will negatively impact your future, or HAVE A PLAN!!!

The only thing you can do is HAVE A PLAN.

Your school should have a plan for an active shooter on campus and review and drill at least once a year. Most Schools have nice heavy fire doors on classrooms. Lock the door, remain in the room, place some visual barrier on any entry door window, add additional physical barrrier to the door if possible, move students out of the line of fire from the door, turn off the lights in the room and be as silent as possible until the situation is under control. Keeping some sort of striking defense object like a baseball bat, aluminum rod, etc... on hand would not be a bad idea either.

I'm scheduled to attend a seminar/workshop on School Violence: Assessing Threats put on by the State Police and FBI. I may be able to share more next week.

[TDean]

Teachers with Tasers sound good.

[BritinUSA]

The whole thing was planned well in advance. NBC has received a packet from the shooter posted before the event. All the warning signs were there. College professors tried to take action but no doubt the fear of litigation binds their hands. This country does not need Gun Control, it needs Tort Reform.

Everything from flying imams to Columbine wannabees are protected by an umbrella of litigation that prevents decent people from taking action.

[BritinUSA]

It just gets worse; He was adjudicated to be mentally ill in 2005 and ordered to undergo treatment. This should have been stored in the VA Database that NICS accesses when undergoing a background check. For some reason either the adjudication was not on file or NICS could not access it.

He cannot legally purchase a gun with that adjudication on his record.

[dcarter]

Teachers with Tasers sound good.

Yes, but not for a gun fight. The taser has a very limited range. Again its like brining a knife to a gun fight. I would rather see well trained and willing teachers and staff with a ccw. Guns have no place in schools but the criminal (or the insane) do not care about rules. They will use the rules of our society to their advantage.

[GentlemanJim]

I just saw that punks rant on tv

He was full of that class hatred and poor oppressed me crap.

hated anyone that had more stuff than him, what a crock.

It gets even worse....but I am soooo MAD I cant think.

Between crying about the unbearable loss of inocent life ....and now this crap he left behind I like most of us, am just trying to get past this indescribible horror.

Jim

[bountyhunter]

Teachers with Tasers sound good.

Yes, but not for a gun fight. The taser has a very limited range. Again its like brining a knife to a gun fight. I would rather see well trained and willing teachers and staff with a ccw.

Amen. Pay them extra, give them proficiency tests and psychological screening and some kind of "officer authority" to carry at all times on and off school grounds.

Even up the field a little for a change.

[FranDoc]

I'm scheduled to attend a seminar/workshop on School Violence: Assessing Threats put on by the State Police and FBI. I may be able to share more next week.

Please do, as able. I'd like to know what kind of information is being given to teachers, and by whom.

Thanks.

[Coach]

School shootings are a subject that is frequently on my mind as well. I am a high school teacher in Indiana, and I have thought a great deal about this and have a plan for my classroom, but it is in the realm of bringing a knife to a gun fight. But it is a plan. I hate the idea of locking the door and hiding until the police get there, which is our school's official plan.

How long will that take? Will the first few officers come into the building or set up to contain the situation?

The other angle on my mind constantly is my first grade daughter. Who is going to protect her in the event of shooting at her school? I cannot be there.

I have also discovered in the last couple of days there are so many people out there who have no understanding of guns or self defense in any capacity, and we have to educate the rest of the country about self defense and the proper, lawful use of guns for that purpose. Many just don't know and don't get it. Of course there are the hard core anti's that will never pull their head out of the sand.

But I strongly feel there are many people who could be won over. Conclealed carry seems so obivous to this community but there are many to whom it is not obvious.

[carinab]

The only thing you can do is HAVE A PLAN.

Your school should have a plan for an active shooter on campus and review and drill at least once a year. Most Schools have nice heavy fire doors on classrooms. Lock the door, remain in the room, place some visual barrier on any entry door window, add additional physical barrrier to the door if possible, move students out of the line of fire from the door, turn off the lights in the room and be as silent as possible until the situation is under control. Keeping some sort of striking defense object like a baseball bat, aluminum rod, etc... on hand would not be a bad idea either.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic but am wondering why the "proper" response is to barricade in place rather than exit? Barricading would seem to make one hostage fodder. All schools have fire alarms and a procedure to exit if the alarm sounds. At least at my daughter's school district, fire exits are mandated to be no more than a very short distance from the classrooms. Couldn't some variance of a fire exit plan be used? Granted you wouldn't want to run out in front of a psychopath with a gun trying to get to an exit, but sitting and waiting for him to come get you seems an equally unpalatable option. I'm thinking along the lines of the incident at the Russian school. The ones that survived were the ones who got out. Same thing at Columbine. I'm wondering if the barricade plan was put into place back when the thinking was that hostage takers would want to negotiate rather then out right kill.

[Jake Di Vita]

Unfortunately the bottom line is that if someone wants to go end a lot of lives....ultimately there is very little that can stop them.

The only thing you can do is prepare yourself as much as possible to deal with the situation if it ever occurs.

[BritinUSA]

Carina,

It all depends on the layout of the school. If there is only one exit from the classroom and that class is on the 2nd floor or higher then there is a risk of running into the killer if you use the door. If there is a means to secure the room, then this may be the best option.

There is no hard and fast rule in a situation like this, as others have stated there does need to be a plan in place. Layouts of buildings do not take into account incidents like this, they layout the buildings to provide rapid exits through fire exits etc. but if the exits are blocked by a killer then your options are limited.

It appears that the students were backed into a corner on the upper levels. They had nowhere to go, the killer was at the door and windows with a big drop behind them. In those situations people WILL jump. They did on 911, the had no chance of surviving a multi-story jump but when faced with the flames they either jump or die and the brain will direct you to whatever gives even a narrow chance of survival.

The biggest problem here is lack of a means to fight back, if you are backed into a corner your options and your mobility becomes limited.