HK USP vs. Sig P226

[Stalker]

Which is better for IPSC production?

[Nik Habicht]

The only Grandmaster in Production achieved it with a Sig.  That doesn't mean it isn't possible with other guns.....

[lowtech]

WOW, when and who?  Can you tell I am really interested in Production.

[Stalker]

Yeah. Who was the Grandmaster in production with a sig?

[Flexmoney]

Must be David Olhasso.  Shoots near Philly and in Jersesy.

From the looks of his classifiers, I'd guess he is tall.  Nik, can you or Chriss get him on the forum?  He has some 100% classifiers that would be great for him to share his experience on (great for us).

http://www.uspsa.org/cgi-bin/lookup_class.cgi?number=TY37700

(Edited by Flexmoney at 12:36 am on May 13, 2002)

[BSeevers]

David shoots a Glock(What's that?) He just got GM so they must be talking about someone else

[Chriss Grube]

The guy is David Olhasso. He is tall, I'm not sure how the heck you figured that out by his score? Dave is a big boy. I'm guessing 6'2"+ and 250-265. He is also a limited GM. He shoots a Sig. He shows up at Topton to shoot every once in awhile. Like anything else it isn't the gun. You can take guys like that and hand them a glock, sig, LDA etc. and they will win. He will be going head to head with Sevigny at the Area 8 Factory gun match. Should be some good competition in production. Milford Lovette and Phil Strader(GMSHTR) are also signed up for production. If Dave shows up next Sun. to shoot I'll see if I can talk him into a guest appearance here.

Don't overlook the Para LDA for production. The trigger is incredible and the same pull to pull. EGW does a great job on them. I think it is the closest thing to an SA going.

[BSeevers]

You are right I was confusing him with David Sevigny. Heck all those stock guns look the same to me

[Chriss Grube]

I still keep trying to turn on the dot! The only good thing is the batteries never die!

[ian g]

Which has a better DA & SA trigger pull?

[Duane Thomas]

The SIG by a mile. Out-of-the-box the HK trigger is gritty and heavy. A few years ago SIG put a lot of effort into smoothing out and lightening their DA trigger pulls - the SA were always nice - and it's paid off. In my experience you're probably looking at an out-of-the-box DA pull of circa 10 pounds, and an SA of about 4-1/2 pounds (depending on the gun, either or both of those may be lighter) and extremely smooth.

[Mikul]

Dave was just at an IDPA match in Oaks, PA last weekend.  He took first place by a wide margin (about 10s). Eight points down for three stages and ran a 12 shot stage in 6 seconds including draw and movement.

He was shooting a Beretta Elite.

[Trey]

I echo Duane's comments.  Also the HK's controls are more complicated as the decocker/manual safety are on one lever.  IE it's easy to miss a position or action unless you pay attention and load/decock/holster/shoot the same method each time.

When I first started USPSA (shooting a Sig), I watched another newbie shoot an HK but he didn't pay close attention to decocking or enganging the safety.  He reholstered without decocking and the safety was NOT on.  He had an AD about 3" from his foot.

HK's are good guns but Sigs are simpler, smoother, and run great.

[TRG65]

Sig's are great guns and have owned a few, my wife still has hers.  I gave mine up in favor of Glocks.  

The high overall SSP shooter at the 2002 WV state IDPA match shot an H&K USP.  If I remember correctly the guy's name was Bob Volker (don't quote me), from Ohio.

[Steve Moneypenny]

Bob Vogel he is from Ohio, shot an HK USP 45 Expert (5" slide) dampens recoil and a bit more sight radius. Bob is a very quiet unassuming person, when he gets out in the world he'll be a name to look for.

I would take an HK USP over a SIG any day, until they make an SS frame for a 226. My main reason is i can't  keep my thumb off of the slide stop, this is a HUGE hindrance for IDPA.  I like the controls on the HK. and love the mag release.  

i say shoot both, then use the one you like the best, you'll have a definitive answer with about 100 rounds of each.

[Scooter]

Just send the HK to Bruce Gray and he'll make the trigger right.

[EricW]

As a rule, I tend not to bash guns.  Most are well made and serve their purpose.  However, I'm going to make an exception today.

As a *former* USP owner, I'll put in my $.02.  There are at least two generations of the USP as I can tell.  I bought one of the first ones off the boat - sight unseen.  I was *so* excited.  The trigger was as awful as Dwayne described.  The slide stop was held in by friction only and was SO tight, fieldstripping the gun was IMPOSSIBLE without a punch or other tool.  Accuracy was mediocre.  The finish was lousy.  The gun was "carburized" *before* the serial numbers were etched into the frame and slide.  Consequently, the gun rusted up the first week I had it.  (My carry guns get *soaking* wet.  I was really PO'd because HK crowed endlessly about how corrosion resistant the USP was.  Grrr...)  The molding quality of the gun was lousy.  I had to trim off plastic on one of the frame rails because it had flashed over when it was made.  

The "second" generation of USP's I've seen have addressed the fieldstripping issue.  The slide stop pops out like you'd expect it to.  As I recall, HK put in a spring plunger in the frame with a detent in the stop.  If your heart's set on an HK, get the newer generation frame.  You'll thank me later.  The triggers are still gawdawful and the tactical finish is as inadequate as ever.  The USP is an OK gun as a single action.  I wouldn't even consider running one without a trigger job for Production.

For accuracy and handling (for me anyway), the Sig runs circles around the HK.  I would make a point of buying a steel framed Sig if I was shooting competition.

...and the fancy USP controls just get in the way, especially when you're starting out.  There's a lot to be said for simplicity.   

[John Thompson]

I carry a USP 9mm compact off duty because I like the 1911 style safety.  The Sig will probably shoot better than the HK because it's heavier.  A trigger job on the USP is easy and cheap and the LEM trigger is awsome.  The USP is a chunky gun and it and the Sig have high barrel bore axis.

Just like Smoney I hit the decocker on the Sig all the time and have no trouble with the control lever on the USP.

Neither of these guns are my idea ofa good production gun.  I prefer Beretta, Smith, Para, or Springfield XD

[grayguns]

I ran the USP's for about three years, and my last match with one was the A1 where I barely won Production with a slightly inert, borrowed gun. My "tuned" guns were back at HK being counted for the past couple months...

For your consideration: We just did a slew of somewhat subjective and entertaining range experiments which included a lot of 25-yard high-speed, who-cares Bill Drills, some simple scenarios and other speed / controllability tests. Between the SIG's, XD's, HK's, Glocks and one Beretta we shot, I would rank the "best" 10 Production guns for controllability as follows, assuming ammo PF @130 and each with triggers of similar "feel" where applicable, not that that's really possible:

1) SIG SS 226 9mm- no contest the best for sight return

2) XD Tactical 40- fastest to fire, if not always hit with

3) SIG 226 40- good, stable sight return

6) Glock 34...it's a Glock

6) XD 4" 9...it's Not a Glock

6 G-17...it's THE Glock...all about the same?

8) SIG 226 9

8) Beretta Elite 2...tied with 226 9?

9) USP9F

10) USP Expert 40

Now, does it matter that much? Not really. Splits mean little to the disciplined shooter in my opinion. (That shooter isn't necessarily me!) Transitions are everything. The SS 226 weighs almost 40 ounces, great if we only had to shoot standards all day. For overall nimbleness, shootability, inherent accuracy and trigger quality, the standard SIG's are hard to beat. The HK's are faster than anything to handle and load, but they flip and buck like a jet powered pogostick. The XD Tactical 40 impressed everyone that shot it, despite the long reset and mediocre groups we got out of out T&E sample.

I think I may shoot both the XD and a SIG for a while, and see which I really can run better. -Bruce Gray

[EricW]

I ran the USP's for about three years...

I just have to respect anyone who likes *that* kind of abuse.

What is "counting"? That's a new one to me....

[Singlestack]

grayguns makes me want to give an XD a test drive.

I have not shot one yet. Shooting a Glock messes up my 1911 trigger pull. I think what causes it is the trigger return spring pressure on the Glock. I ride the trigger and I feel like it makes my trigger finger get lazy.

[Duane Thomas]

I just got through testing the SIG P226 Stainless 9mm for an article. Accuracy with favored ammo was great - inside 1" at 50 feet, the maximum distance possible on the indoor range on which I was shooting. It worked with every type of ammo I put through it, hardball, hollowpoints, subsonics, +Ps, it didn't make a difference. What can I say? It's a 9mm SIG P226 - what did you expect.

[rhino]

Now I am almost regretting selling my P226 (and I sold it here! For not a lot of $$$)

I have to comfort myself with the fact that it was too big for my fingers and I rarely shot it.

[EricW]

I wish I would have bought my neighbor's Sig, before the gunshop ripped him off trading it in... I'm not a Sig fan, but it's hard not to be impressed with the accuracy and ease of recoil managment.

[Bucky]

One thing that I didn't see mentioned in the HK vs Sig debate is the Mag Release. Now whether you like the HK release or not (I personally do not), it is different than the majority of Autos we shoot. If you shoot different guns in different divisions, this may be a big consideration.

I seem to change guns / divisions every other week (I don't know why), so I like to keep as much consistant as possible, with the mag button being an important one.