grayguns

Straight from me: Do not use any other trigger with our P320 Competition Trigger Kit components. Reducing pretravel via an adjustment on the trigger defeats the sear safety cam, messes with trigger mass balance & tolerance for impact, and degrades striker lock integrity. I invented the sear safety cam feature around 2015 to enhance drop safety in our original P320 Competition kits. We made our system available to my friends in NH for incorporation into the Voluntary Upgrade. Our modern P320 AST & AHT triggers effectively and safely reduce some gross pretravel and slop via optimal fit and finish, while supporting the Voluntary Upgrade fire control system to which I contributed. Our complete P320 Competition Trigger Kits provide the best possible pull characteristics to be obtained, consistent with the margin of tolerance for impact and rough handling we demand for your safety. And anyhoo, there is literally nothing to be gained by sacrificing mechanical safety for that tiny reduction in travel which, unlike the purely mechanical qualities of overtravel, pull weight, and break texture, is best accommodated through proper technique and training. If you don't believe me, ask Mason Lane, Isaac Lockwood, Yong Lee or James Delambert. Thanks for reading and Merry Christmas!

We currently have these in stock, in great quantities. Thank you. -Bruce

EXACTLY !!! Shipping costs both ways to send my gun to Bruce Gray for a Trigger Job ??? Just make the parts and sell the Kits, I'll install it myself. 175 bucks for sights ?? I don't need Bruce to sight in my gun. Sell his sights like Sevigny does with the fiber optic front and i'll get a sight pusher and do it myself.. These guys are so backed up with work because they want it that way.. Quit the BS and sell your stuff to the DIY.. Geez, it's not like i'm rebuilding a automatic transmission... Hi! You make a good point. We will eventually offer our sights as a DIY set, as with the upcoming P320 action upgrade kits we're working on with SIG Sauer. For now, however, we are installing these ourselves to ensure that; a) you don't break the front sight off with your pusher, and the pistol actually gets zeroed for you. The P320's are accurate as hell, but they tend to group different loads to different POI's, along with significant POI/POA variations gun-to-gun. Just among the 28 Team SIG pistols we built and delivered recently, we've had six different front and rear height combinations, with some machine-fitting to boot. (Our new P320 rear sight is designed to be machined to zero, and we refinish each set to order after fitting.) We are working with our counterparts at SIG Sauer to figure this out, and expect the next model to be less variable in this regard. I don't understand your comment about being backed up with work because we "want it that way." What we want is for our customers and friends to get perfect work and parts that we guarantee for life, as I always have. I humbly suggest that may explain why GGI is where we are today. We can fairly be criticized for longish lead times, but as I yet live and breathe not for the quality of our work. -Bruce

I recommend a 124gr true, drawn-jacketed bullet with enough TiteGroup to make a reliable 131PF for competition in the P320F9. I feel the 147's are needlessly pushy, and the long locked barrel-slide travel of this design allows a lighter bullet to shine. My opinion, and others feel differently. I believe at least 2/3 of my Team SIG shooters are running 147's to excellent effect. FYI, I'm taking the P320 to Bianchi, and will be running the SIG Elite Performance 124 V-Crown over TiteGroup at 126PF. That load is capable of groups well inside 2" at fifty from the Team SIG gun I am running, though I can no longer see well enough to get that on demand. The smallest group I have documented publicly with this load ran 2.15" for ten shots, off bags. -Bruce

If it isn't, you'll be refunded. We guarantee everything we do for life. I am confident. I apologize for the costs involved, and encourage folks to use a local dealer for USPS shipping instead of going direct with UPS. Thank you! -Bruce

They look similar. You can use Wolff or ISMI springs. Good point: After much experimentation and high speed video, we've settled on a 14X ISMI for 147's at <132PF, and the 15X for lighter bullets under 135PF. The ultimate limiting factor remains having adequate closing tension to overcome the striker spring into full battery. Our work does not involve reduced-rate striker springs. If we weenied-out on ignition reliability, we'd gain a little extra closing assurance, but a 15X does a fine job of reducing excess muzzle dip on closing. I hope this advice helps. -Bruce

If one isn't careful it's possible to damage tritium vials when using a punch. I was just reminded of this first hand while adjusting the front sight on my P320 last week. I have an MGW for the classic series (Sig) guns and as others noted, it's a much more seamless means of doing the job. t You can also snap off or bend front sights with a pusher. Dawson sights in particular simply cannot successfully be installed with out fitting, and a sight pusher wil bend the blade on any sight tight enough to fit durably. At GGI, we fit and install a wide range of sights that we guarantee, and never use sight pushers anymore. Indeed, I now see these tools as an expedient alternative to the application of proper skill. Instead, we use specially made dovetail punches, and do a very careful job of it. -Bruce

No. Different manufacturers. Thanks for the opportunity for clarification. Ours are a bit more expensive. They are turned from 17-4, heat-treated to 45-47RC, and stress relieved. They are guaranteed for life as is everything we do and sell. In 13 years that we've been making FAT rods for SIG pistols, we've never had a failure AFAIK. Scott's a great guy and I am happy to share the idea with him. You'll see some collaborations between our shops in the future. Check out his grip tape sets and basepads. -Bruce

Hi! Bruce Gray here. I'd like to make the point that the P320 will not fire unless safely in battery; the lockup travel is very long on this platform, and is safely tolerant of being slightly retracted, as might be the case if one was depending upon the recoil spring guide assembly to prevent it from opening fully. -Bruce

This is an interesting topic for me, largely because of the degree of relatively uninformed speculation alloyed with false assumptions that the "Why don't we see more SIG's in Production?" question always prompts. That's not meant as a slam. I don't blame anyone for voicing those assumptions and speculative theories, since in fact there aren't that many people with informed opinions on the successful use of P-Series SIG pistols in competition to draw more realistic conclusions from. With full disclosure of my long association with SIG Sauer, and as president of Grayguns Inc., I'd like to offer some of my admittedly biased experience and opinions. First, while nobody would consider me to have been any sort of really great Production shooter, I did manage to win and place in a surprising number of the larger matches I shot when I was SIGARMS' factory shooter boy from late 2002 through mid-2005 when I was forced by health issues to retire from competition. I think that included a few wins in some Area and section-level matches, and high finishes in much else I shot. As I have always pretty much sucked at speed shooting compared to my peers and betters, I could be coy and tell you I was just really lucky that better shooters weren't there when I won. However, the fact is that this wasn't always the case, and through hard work and some fortuitous late-career personal understandings, I learned to drive the DA/SA SIG as well or better than the 1911-based pistols that came before. That facility persisted even as I walked away from competition in 2005 with a final last, very sad look over my shoulder. When I went back to the Bianchi Cup in 2011 and 2012 with a DA/SA X5 AllRound, I shot Production scores that rivaled or beat the best I put up in my youth with 1911 or HK, and set a couple new records for Enoch and Rob to break. That concludes my ego's happy excursion into old, forgotten triumphs. Let it simply be said that I took a lot of negative comments about "high bore axis" and "the lousy SIG trigger" from a lot of shooters I beat, but only a few such comments from the real greats that bested me, and who generally knew better. Fact is, if a higher bore axis alone is an impassible barrier to competitiveness, then 1911's and many other platforms also are impossible to win with. And, at the risk of shameless self-promotion I'll put a properly built SIG competition action against ANYTHING else. Period. Let it be said that in the hundreds of thousands of rounds we've fired from P-Series pistols by now (in addition to the training and competition I've done with them, we are the world's largest shop for SIG custom and R&D work by far, and test everything we touch thoroughly), I have yet to suffer a major failure with one. We go a year or two between even seeing any sort of malfunctions at all, much less any sort of small parts breakages. My personal P226 that I shot on behalf of SIGARMS with, s/n 489XXX, has in excess of 65,000 rounds on it and still runs perfectly. I broke exactly one hammer reset spring so far. A typical P226 can be counted upon to group well inside 2" / 25 yards with decent ammo. Many do better. I shot a 1.3" 50 yard group using Laser-Cast bullets with a Bianchi X5 I set up for Mickey Fowler a few years ago. I fear no target presentation with such pistols. But, don't take my word for it. Anyone who really, seriously wants to give a P226 a fair trial, let me know? I'll loan you one of my old match guns, a good holster, and some mags. I'll impart unto you what little I may think I know about running the trigger. You may still prefer your current choice, and that's fine. But maybe not? Thanks for reading! -Bruce

I appreciate Alma's comment! At this time I can only say that SIG Sauer is putting forth a substantial initiative to develop and promote the P320 Modular Handgun System platform for competition. Our company is heavily involved in this initiative, and other specialists in our industry are lending us support and input. We are already seeing an intense amount of interest in this pistol from Production shooters. The full scope of what we're doing will be made public as we go along next year. I am also to understand that the incomparable Max Michel is indeed planning to run some Production next season with two pistols set up for him by Robert Burke. I literally cannot wait to see him shred with the new SIG striker gun. I predict it will be nothing short of epic. If the world of practical shooting to which I have devoted my professional life still holds an earthly purpose for me to fulfill, such that my physical being should be recalled to my bench from the shadowy clutches of Death, working with the P320 is it. We know the P320 intimately and have been working with it intently to divine it's last secrets and tease out of it every last bit of it's immense potential. As it stands, it represents a degree of innovation that sets it apart from everything else, and is a superb, bravely conceived duty weapon. (I plan to switch to a stock P320C9 for duty / carry myself.) I truly believe the P320 is going places. In a big way. And we are deeply humbled to be invited along for the ride. There will be room on the bus for everybody. (I apologize to the Moderators if my comments appear unduly commercial. It's a decade past time I bought a page here; send me the bill!) -Bruce

Love the process. Gain visceral enjoyment from seeing the sights and feeling the trigger through each shot. Then the match will greet you like a warm friend. -Bruce

CJ56, thank you for your comments and observations, and my deep thanks for the kind comments y'all have posted here over the years that this has been up. I haven't had the pleasure of visiting here for a while, and am in a mood to reflect if nobody minds? I first started scribbling this article around 1998 and got this far by 2004 or so when I retired from competition as my health betrayed me. ( I've since spent the last decade building our businesses, teaching, and dealing with a succession of heart attacks.) I wrote this for the purpose of mapping out, in my inadequate words, some visible signposts pointing to concepts I have learned from my betters, any understanding of which defy being expressed directly in words at all. Yet I wanted to try, for I didn't want to forget again. When I started shooting 42 years ago, I was fortunate to be allowed to hang out with some savvy old bullseye and PPC masters who understood something of the process-orientated approach. I learned to hit stuff. Then, around 1977 I went nuts for combat shooting and started building pistols as a career choice, Again, I was blessed by great associations and friendships with many of the top shooters of the day that have lasted throughout my long career. They each had their own understanding of what it took for them to do well, and we would hash over these ideas endlessly, each speaking a language that wasn't quite the others. Yet, all I could see were their scores, their times, the guns, the gear, the stuff. The old knowledge of sights and trigger was discounted, fundamentals sacrificed on the false altars of speed and effort. On those occasions when I scored well, I was quick to credit my "trying hard despite myself", as if winning a match was a moral right accorded to he who best transcended his self-inflicted handicap. With a weak and hungry ego consuming my toxic emotions for the bitter satisfaction found in the immediacy of results attached to a faint glimmer of hope, I struggled to see competition (or much of anything) for what it was. I chased what it looked like. And to the ego, the hidden riddle of practical pistol competition doesn't look anything like the answer we find hidden in plain view, but fail to recognize. More than 25 years ago now, I went through a series of events that changed me. I was struggling with myself and the other guy was winning the fight. Brian once told me to find an anchor, words that resonated. Thankfully, I finally did. I am moored to the island of my faith, upon which the very many I now love and the very little I now require are found. To that end, I do not see any contradiction between an embrace of Zen principles, and one's faith in God's love. Indeed, the practice of mindfulness has brought me closer to our Lord Jesus Christ, who's Word rides the calm inner sea to my heart. I'm so glad to have found this thread after so long. By the grace of God, the support of my beloved wife Rodent, lots of friends, and some really great doctors, I am now completely healthy. For the first time in 40 years, I'm free of the debilitating symptoms of heart disease. I'm getting strong. It's a true miracle. I shouldn't be here with you. And so what the heck? I'm going to shoot again. The guy that wrote this is really not me today. That's so much the better, as I get to rediscover that cool understanding of what it looks and feels like to be behind the gun, the personal understanding that these words can only infer, and not portray. This is going to be immense fun! I can't wait, so I'm not. -Bruce

Joe, the long-awaited X5/220 extractor fix is finally available, although I am not. I'll be out until around February, recovering from my recent heart attack and upcoming bypass surgery, but you can contact Rick at the GGI Secret Volcano Base for details. I'm sorry this fix took so long to develop and perfect; it's about the most challenging problem we've ever had to tackle, and I have a lot of sympathy for the SIG Sauer people who also struggled with this issue. Thanks for asking! -Bruce

Since last year, I've given it a rest. I'm spooling up for the 2013 Cup now in earnest and am still at a bit of a loss on this sight business. Given my history in the match, I truly believe I can keep my nervous system in tune if I can see some alignment under the lighting conditions Bruce described. So I'm experimenting...-Bruce

I'm a little curious about this. I heard Vance shot an SP-01, Robbie won it last year with a 5.25, Kyle the year before with an XD if memory serves and Sevigny the year before with a Glock 34. Another outstanding name in the field Enoch Smith runs an M&P. BJ this year ran a revolver. Seems like there are a lot of very, very good choices in Production but I haven't seen a clear standout. But then again I missed this year. BTW, I think your problem on the plates was a lack of match practice. We need to be seeing you in Sherwood for the monthly AP matches. And bring your crew down here will ya? I also thought Enoch had the M&P this year, but after seeing Julie's pics, he was indeed using the 5.25. 2 years ago I shot production, and the plates were horrible then to see for me at my less than I deal time of day. The white plate, light colored rock/dirt, and a perfect glare made the plates disappear prone at 20 and 25. Enoch is a true talent, and the 5.25 seems to suit him well. The dude rightfully scares me with that thing! As for the plates, I am considering whether to shoot them standing if such conditions obtain next year, the ostensible tradeoff in stability being that I can keep the sight picture on the plate and block some glare off the ground. I'll also take a couple training trips to Columbia in the intervening time to sort this out. -Bruce

I think it was last year that they put shredded tires on the berm behind the plates to control water errosion. Because it was very sunny this year and the trees are growing around that range, the shredded tires were in the shade and made it look very black. Naturally, the black iron sights were lost in the black background. Exactly. What do you propose for a solution for next year, Bruce? I'm thinking green.

That remains to be seen, so to speak, but I will definitely be doing my homework on sighting options that may include coloured blades and so forth. For me (setting aside stark terror for a moment), the issue wasn't one of seeing the front blade clearly, but rather of losing it's reference to the rear notch. I winged shots into the next ZIP code as a result of not being able to see clear alignment when I hit the mat. Last year, I had great difficulty shooting consistently from prone at 50 yards in poor light. Many of us had that problem, of course. My response was to tighten up my sight picture to get the rear notch to appear just within the 18" wide target at 50. That worked splendidly and I shot the Practical really well this year. However, even though I ran a very tight .084" rear notch in anticipation of this issue on the Practical event, I still lost the rear blade in the glaring contrast between the edge of each plate and the dark background at 25 yards when prone. In other words, my aligned sights still described, or covered, a slightly larger area than the plate at that distance, and they lacked adequate contrast to the background. I now can't be sure that even if my carbide smoker been working, I would have had enough contrast to see the rear blade and notch clearly enough to assure 12 hits. So, what to do? A fiber optic front blade would not solve this for me. A contrasting rear blade would, and that's what I am playing with now as I prepare for Germany. In looking at videos of the BDMP range, it seems lighting will be interesting there as well. I'm all ears for suggestions? -Bruce

As I was mentioned here as having an opinion on recoil-buffer rod systems, so shall I reply. My long experience with such buffers of various designs from my early pioneering days in the '70's through now has led me to agree with Brian and others who don't recommend them. However, I can grant that there may be useful applications for such gimmickry in 1911's, if one is willing to accept more mechanical complexity, accelerated bushing wear and tear, and perhaps more bounce. The comments I made on another forum referenced here by Donovan were directed to the units designed for the P-series SIG Sauer. There guide rods conduct recoil energy through the takedown lever, and can cause damage to the slide and failure of the lever. We routinely remove such buffers from our customer's SIG pistols when encountered and replace them with one of our solid FAT rods at no charge. That's how strongly I feel about it. -Bruce

Truer words were never spoken, not that I'd know anything about that. I was leading Production by five points going into the Plates. I stress the word "was". I am now producing the obligatory YouTube excuse video in which I'll be shooting plates whilst aiming through a mirror weak-handed just to restore my bruised reputation to a sceptical public. Seriously though, I learned something: listen to Rob when he warns you about losing your sights in the bright sun against the dark background there. I had sighting options in the form of a fiber-optic front blade and paint but elected to stick with what I had, black-on-black. That became grey-on-fear at the 25 yard line, and it killed me. So, word to the wise. I'll not make that mistake again. I'll definitely make a different one instead next time. That said, I am very happy to see Vance take it. He's had this coming for a long time, and he'll be a formidable team mate with me in Germany come September. I can't wait. Of the various competitive Production pistol options for the Cup, preferences seem to be settling out between the XD-M 5.25, the X5 AllAround, and everything else. -Bruce

Please indulge me a story? I admit to being biased in favour of SIG Sauer pistols, having had a long relationship with the firm and their products. It was thus natural that I should choose an X5 AllAround as my platform when I returned to competition after a 7 year hiatus due to health issues that I came back from, praise God. The Cup has always been my first love in shooting sports. So, last winter I weezed one of my clients out of his spare AllAround, fixed the extractor issue that had kept his gun in new condition, threw a BarSto and .110" rear notch on it, loaded 7,500 rounds of Laser-Cast 122's, actually trained for once, went to Columbia and tanked the Practical worse than Rob did, and lost to him graciously, something I had become adept at in my long career. (How he hit ANYTHING as dark as it was when he shot his fifty yard strings is beyond me.) While practicing at Mickey Fowler's ranch last spring, we played with various solutions to the issues he was having running his G34. Though fairly accurate as he set it up, Mickey wasn't shooting it to his inestimable potential. So, he tried my AllAround. That's all it took. Fast forward to last Thursday. Mickey had driven up from California to our Secret Volcano Base in eastern Oregon to get his AllAround set up for the Cup. There'snot much to do, of course. The rules permit a replacement BarSto barrel, and we tuned the action to raise the SA pull above the 3.5 pound minimum. (We're teaming up on Production this year, as my 2011 co-winner Roy is shooting Metallic this time.) After Roy finished assembling the X5, we wanted to get at least some idea of how this thing would shoot. So, Mickey spotted me while I shot a group off the bag at fifty yards with some of our 122 grain Laser-Cast / TiteGroup practice loads left over from last year's effort: Yes, I don't exactly believe it either, but there it is. My personal X5 also shoots these bullets very well, around 2.5 inches most of the time, but MIckey's blower is ridiculous. For whatever reason this gun is exceptionally accurate accurate. FYI, the only reason we shot jacketed bullets in the match was due to concerns about smoke and backlit targets. If I knew I'd shoot in a light breeze at noon, I'd shoot them in preference. -Bruce

We've had occasion to work with most all major makes of 1911 barrels over the years, and I've formed some pretty definite opinions regarding what we prefer around here. There's no question that most any well-fitted barrel of decent quality will shoot. By that, I'd say most any individual barrel will group well with some specific bullet type and / or load. In my opinion, the best barrels will group a variety of loads well, and a few really well. Beyond that, what we look for is durability in both external fitted surfaces and internal bore quality. Some barrels shoot great for about 20 minutes, it seems, and then it's over. One day about 18 years ago I went to the range with Aaron Bush, who was keen on testing a new .38 Super race gun (equipped with an ECM-rifled barrel) with 115's at major. At 10:00AM he was making a 177PF, and getting some good groups. By noon, his load chono'd at a 165 and the thing shot like crap, owing to a burned-out leade. As another example, a close friend and former Bianchi champion would come to me around May Day each season with a bag of Open parts, a frame & slide set and a mover base with which I'd build up a fresh Cup gun. The barrels made by his sponsor always shot well for 5 or 6 thousand rounds of practice before the rifling leades would burn out. By the time he'd trained up, what started out as a 1.5" gun wouldn't hold 3". It's not fair to say all such tubes will fail sooner than expected, but for this reason we avoid using ECM and hammer-forged barrels. I favour BarSto barrels for most all applications. There may be individual barrels that shoot better when new, but it's been my experience that their tendency to maintain accuracy over time is of greater benefit than the potential gain of a fraction of an inch better group with some load or another...and the most accurate 1911-system pistols I have built were all around BarSto's, FWIW. Certainly, the BarSto I ran in my X5 AllAround for Bianchi this season was and remains a great performer; after about 8,000 rounds of training and at the match, it still groups very, very well. I have every expectation that I'll be able to run the same barrel all next season as well, with no real fear of it going soft on me. That counts for a lot in my book. -Bruce

Hi, Donovan. I'm glad our work has inspired you! Though I apprenticed in high school, I started my gunmaking career in earnest when I was in college, much like you. As for your setup, some well-meaning advice: I'd avoid use of fatigued, light or cut-down recoil springs in any P-series SIG. Reduced closing pressure increases unlocking speed and slide velocity, thus aggravates the well-known extraction problems that many models are susceptible to, and will generally cause excessive frame rail wear over time. As well, our testing has demonstrated a clear correlation between inherent accuracy and recoil spring closing pressure in P-series pistols such as the9mm X5 AllArounds which Roy Nelson and I ran at the Bianchi Cup this year. We shot these pistols extensively for months with various barrels, springs and loads to dope this all out. BTW, the best groups with jacketed bullets were achieved with a BarSto barrel, 124 XTP's and TiteGroup at 131PF, with a fresh orange recoil spring. -Bruce

Hiya! As I was summoned, so have I appeared. I greatly appreciate the compliments, folks. In reality, whatever positive impression people may have of "my" work is due to the diligent efforts of my Grew at GGI. I have 9 outstanding employees on the gunsmithing side who work like devils to make me look good. I have been negligent in working out a vendor agreement with brianenos.com, and am loathe to further promote our work until we do. (Anyone of substance who works in our field should be here. Mea culpa, Brian! Let's do this thing.) In Greg's case, it's best I promote others who can do this better. I would indeed start by contacting Henning and seeing what he says. As well, Randy Lee of Apex Tactical has demonstrated to me his great expertise with these actions. My Foreman Roy nelson, himself a great talent, sends his personal CZ's to Randy. As it happens, GGI doesn't work on CZ-system pistols. Thank you all again! -Bruce

This is exciting news. It looks like my wife Rodent has a break between semesters that would permit her to come with me. How cool! I'm committing myself to competing for the Production Championship, and can't wait to get training for it. -Bruce