Jim Norman Posted November 23, 2006 Share Posted November 23, 2006 In Multigun we have a situation where when shooting with full capacity guns, we have to have 32 plus rounds to force a rifle reload and 22 or more for a pistol reload. I propose that we allow the COF to stipulate a partial load of both the handgun and the rifle. This allows us to insert a reload into a COF without having to make it 60 rounds. The alternative is to allow for a mandatory reload in the COF on a multigun stage. Both provide the needed skill testing of reloading. Item 2: Disallow the use of Beta-C mags in Standard/Limited and Tactical divisions. Although with the first proposal this becomes less of a problem. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted November 23, 2006 Share Posted November 23, 2006 We've discussed the tac/lim rifle mag capacity issue before. In a word - unpopular. We can go round and round (and round) about what Tactical should be. What's practical, what's "tactical" or whatever. But, this is a game and games have rules. Some make sense, some don't. Rules or divisions are meant to segment competition. Personally, I wouldn't frown on a 30 rd mag rule for Tactical. It would make reloading an issue in that division and that is a good thing in my book. The line between Open and Tactical is a bit too blurry and this would go a long way to solve that problem - but then again, what do I know? It is just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted November 23, 2006 Share Posted November 23, 2006 I don't have a Beta mag.. probably never will.. but someone using one aginst my 30's never bothered me. It doesn't seem that mag capacity is really an issue for the rifles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted November 23, 2006 Share Posted November 23, 2006 If you REALLY want to test reloads, put a Standards course in ... Otherwise the name of the game is freestyle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted November 23, 2006 Share Posted November 23, 2006 The line between Open and Tactical is a bit too blurry and this would go a long way to solve that problem Dave has a point about the modern Tac rifle being pretty close to Open. This may not be the right way to do it, but it is something that should be looked at. Not bothered by anyone using a Beta-C, just figure they belong in Open like 170mm mags for pistols do. It just seems a matter of proportion and to me, logically a Beta-C would not belong in Tac/Limited. Forcing a re-load with a Standard is the way to do this. Run a Presidente' variant if you want to test that skill. We run a rifle prez at every long gun match we run at our club. Good basic skill set tester stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted November 23, 2006 Share Posted November 23, 2006 I posted a request for a 30 round limit on Tactical/Limited among other requests awhile back ago. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...898&hl=gary Disallowing "Beta" mags doesn't really do it for me as there are other hi-cap mags out there that are 30+ rounds that aren't from Beta-C. I'm for limiting Tactical/Limited to 30 rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted November 23, 2006 Share Posted November 23, 2006 AHHHHH Here we go again. Make it 20 and do away with Heavy Metal. If you make it 30 you have "just an AR" class; HK 33/93s came with a 45 rounder form the factory and AR-18s a 40, guess we just limited the class to AR clones. Might as well call it Iron sight AR and single optic AR and be done with it. Jim has it right, allow for mandatory reloads...just like we do in ....GASP...IMGA. There is nothing wrong with stipulating a mag change ANYTIME!!! but those who don't practice will always fall back on limiting mags as a way to "level" the playing field. I couldn't tell you how many times I have heard, if he didn't have that C mag I would have kicked his a#$, and yet I watch said individual and he can't even perform a 6 second 30 round reload. Yep that will solve it all. KURTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 Jim has it right, allow for mandatory reloads...just like we do in ....GASP...IMGA. There is nothing wrong with stipulating a mag change ANYTIME!!! Totally violates one of the tenets of USPSA/IPSC... freestyle. You can't have mandatory reloads in a USPSA assault course. Just imagine instead of reloading where you wan't to on an assault course... the course designer stipulates that you have to reload HERE... then HERE... then HERE. I have to do that in one of the clubs that I shoot locally. Personally I think it is lame. It doesn't let the shooter solve the problem in their own way. I don't see how you would think it is OK to stipulate reloads anytime and yet not like a 30 round limit on magazines. Stipulating reloads in an assault course turns the shooter into an automaton. I don't have a Beta mag.. probably never will.. but someone using one aginst my 30's never bothered me. It doesn't seem that mag capacity is really an issue for the rifles. Hey did you get Kirsch's video of the Nationals in Albany? For some reason Voit doesn't use a Beta on Stage 12 and needs to make a reload. He runs dry at 1:14:37 and initiates a reload. He fires the next shot at 1:14:45. About an 8 second delay. His splits prior to that were around 1-2 seconds. So he lost around 6-7 seconds for that stage. Just think he could have been faster by 6-7 seconds by using a Beta! To me 6-7 seconds is a lot of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 lol.. I'm not saying they wouldn't help some shooters.. just that in my class, that the mags wouldn't matter that much. For the long stuff, making your hits would be much faster than reloading. Those ramps in Area 1, then at the nationals, are one of the few times that a beta would have been nice for me, but more for stabilty than round count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry White Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 It wouldnt really bother me if the beta and other drum mags were restricted to open, I seldom use mine anyway, but leave the rest of it alone. Mandatory reloads belong in stand in the box stages, everthing should remain freestyle.---------Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 A - It's a field course not an assault course. THAT violates IPSC/USPSA. B - To hell with what the theoretical tenants of USPSA/IPSC are, this is 3-Gun/Multi-Gun and it is a completely different game. Those that typically complain about reloading, can't do it to begin with. So practice. C - I'm for Beta's only in Open division and some kind of mag limit in Limited/Tactical. 30 rounders are nice as again, in theory, that's the "stock" configuration. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 Same problem we run into with changing rules in any other division. If we limit the capacity in Limited/Tactical, we make all the C-Mags that people bought to use in those divisions obsolete. I know Tactical shooters that have 3-4 of the dang things. Not sure where they ran across a 400 round course but maybe it took 4 to find one that worked. The mags are about $240.00. Lets not tell these shooters to that they just threw away that money. USPSA has enough trouble keeping three gun shooters without limiting legal equipment. As far as requiring reloads. There's no reason that we shouldn't be able to add it to the multi-gun rules. Not sure how to word it, that's Bruce's problem, but there are other things we do in Multigun that we don't in Pistol matches. There are compromises that need to be made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 Something to keep in mind here is that we're referring only to USPSA multigun, not IMG, SMMG, RM3G, etc. If (big) a mag limit were imposed, all of your Sterlings, Beta's and any other 30+ round stick would still be usefull for games played under those rules. If you REALLY want to test reloads, put a Standards course in ... Excellent point. I designed a simple one (3 targets on one side of a barricade, 3 on the other, mandatory re-load when switching from one side to the other) and it gave people fits. I really, really hope that standards become more prevalent in this game. It just makes sense (to me, anyway.) Kurt - can you elaborate on the practice comment? What is the point of a rule such as a magazine capacity limit? To "level the playing field"? I don't see it. To further define a Division? Makes more sense to me. This sport is about testing skills, right? Reloading is a skill that we test with every other other firearm shot in this sport and it just makes sense that we do it with rifles. If the COF requires more than 31 rds, I'm doing a reload and I can do them as well as anyone I shoot with (but then again, I don't get out much.) And, actually, I kind of like it when I'm shooting against folks with >30 rd mags. I have to push to make up the reload difference and that is good in my eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 I think the horse has left the barn on what mags are legal to use. Putting in a 30 rounds loaded in any mag condition seems to be non-workable to me ----- I don't think may ROs will be able to count to 30 accurately through a multi-day match..... Jim's suggestion of a rule change that would permit stage designers to force a partial load, if they choose, would seem to be the logical alternative. If the stage is well designed --- say six to eight rounds from the first position --- and then some room to move, would it be that much of a problem if the gun ready condition specified ten round max loaded into rifle at start? Seems to me, we could force reloads and allow all types of mags to play...... Keep in mind he's not suggesting every stage start that way ---- this would just toss something else in a designer's tool box...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 I think the horse has left the barn on what mags are legal to use. Putting in a 30 rounds loaded in any mag condition seems to be non-workable to me ----- I don't think may ROs will be able to count to 30 accurately through a multi-day match..... If they do it for 10 rounds for Production/L10 and 8 rounds for SS I think they can figure out 30 rounds. They can figure out by looking at the thing and/or just counting the targets. Jim's suggestion of a rule change that would permit stage designers to force a partial load, if they choose, would seem to be the logical alternative. If the stage is well designed --- say six to eight rounds from the first position --- and then some room to move, would it be that much of a problem if the gun ready condition specified ten round max loaded into rifle at start? Seems to me, we could force reloads and allow all types of mags to play...... I don't understand how you guys can be for mandatory mag changes and be against round limitations in magazines. As a course designer I can just say load HERE at the 30 round limit. Next stage I can do it again... mandatory load HERE at the 30 round limit. I can have a de facto 30 round magazine limit. So you can have your $240 Beta-C and I can neuter your advantage by requiring you to reload to where you have no advantage. I'd rather do it outright and tell you you can't have more than 30 rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grump Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 I'm with Schutzenmeister, in general. Freestyle is not compatible with manadory reloads, but skills drills DO fit into "Standards". I also believe in occasionally having an empty-mag reload in 1 or 3 standard exercises each year, to complete the set of skills tested. There's no danger of the "Standards" swallowing up the entire match like what happened with the Bianchi Cup in its 1st 10 years, either. This variant of the sport seems to remain led by far more dynamic and creative types. Who knows if Beta Cs will eventually grow to be as standard as optics are now in the Sandbox? Although an equipment restriction to "reflect reality" is always risky, and the "level the playing field" and "no equipment races" values can be taken to far, far to easily, it still seems that big 'ol drum mags fit best on parapet guns in garrison defense situations. For now, I think the drums fit only in the division where we are freest to experiment, and really nowhere else. The alternative of forcing a reload by using a restriction on the initial loadout actually makes sense. It's more similar to an equipment restriction than a serious infringement on the freestyle ethos. For "tactical" and "practical" sensibilities, just pretend that your initial engagement was with what you packed for playing in a mag-restriction state (CA? NJ? whatever, I no longer pay attention to those details in the various Gulag states), but the first neutered mag let you fight your way to a Free State with standard-cap mags. It's just way to AR-Centric in our worldview to put a 30-round load limit in there for everything. How about inventing a "roving Standard" exercise, of a short-loaded magazine to begin with in any old field course? Round counts *could* vary, and it could *never* be allowed for more than 1 out of 3 or 4 stages. The general idea of the original proposal is okay, but shouldn't become the usual practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 A - It's a field course not an assault course. THAT violates IPSC/USPSA. OK... what's the difference between a "field course" and an "assault course." I thought they were the same. B - To hell with what the theoretical tenants of USPSA/IPSC are, this is 3-Gun/Multi-Gun and it is a completely different game. Those that typically complain about reloading, can't do it to begin with. So practice I don't think it's a different game at all. As I've noted... I unfortunately shoot matches that require you to reload HERE... then HERE... then HERE. IDPA/IMGA three gun. Shoot matches that take away your thinking and REQUIRES you to reload in certain areas (IDPA/IMGA). And then compare it to a match that allows you to solve the problem within certain equipment parameters (USPSA). The thinking version is soooo much better. Freestyle is what makes USPSA fun. And to note... I've never been to a MAJOR IMGA type match that had mandatory reloads HERE... then HERE... then HERE. Stick those mandatory reloads in RM3G and SMM3G and I'll bet you you will cause a big stink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted November 24, 2006 Author Share Posted November 24, 2006 (edited) Me,I would like the option as a designer to mandate a reload at some point in a COF as opposed to a capacity limit. I think it should be used sparingly, but it is a skill that could be better tested in a field course where you would have some latitude and thereby keep to a more or less freestyle stage as opposed to a Standards stage. My opinion. I have shot, as many of you have, so-called outlaw matches which have their own rules. This is one that I favor. Requiring a reload is not going to end USPSA as we know it. Jim Edited November 24, 2006 by Jim Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 Me,I would like the option as a designer to mandate a reload at some point in a COF as opposed to a capacity limit. I think it should be used sparingly, but it is a skill that could be better tested in a field course where you would have some latitude and thereby keep to a more or less freestyle stage as opposed to a Standards stage. My opinion. I have shot, as many of you have, so-called outlaw matches which have their own rules. This is one that I favor. Requiring a reload is not going to end USPSA as we know it. Jim Ditto. As for assault vs. field courses, we don't assault anything in IPSC/USPSA. It's a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Post Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 Why not just write the written stage briefing to start with a limted number of rounds in the gun, for example, 10 rounds on an 18 round course? Did I miss a rule somewhere? George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 USPSA does not allow specifying the number of rounds that can be loaded in the course description. Only overall Divisional equipment rules can specify the max number of rounds in the mag/gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 As for assault vs. field courses, we don't assault anything in IPSC/USPSA. It's a game. Dude... running all over the place and putting two holes in each target isn't an "assault" course? Back in the oooold days we called them what they are. Assault courses. And we liked it. Looking at the rulebook, now-a-days they doen't call them "field" courses either. They call them: 1.2.1 General Courses of Fire: 1.2.1.1 “Short Courses” must not require more than 9 rounds to complete and no more than 2 shooting locations. 1.2.1.2 “Medium Courses” must not require more than 16 rounds to complete and no more than 3 shooting locations. Course design and construction must not require more than 9 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to eliminate a location or view in the course of fire by shooting all available targets at an earlier location or view. 1.2.1.3 “Long Courses” must not require more than 32 rounds to complete. Course design and construction must not require more than 9 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to eliminate a location or view in the course of fire by shooting all available targets at an earlier location or view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted November 24, 2006 Author Share Posted November 24, 2006 As for assault vs. field courses, we don't assault anything in IPSC/USPSA. It's a game. Dude... running all over the place and putting two holes in each target isn't an "assault" course? Back in the oooold days we called them what they are. Assault courses. And we liked it. Looking at the rulebook, now-a-days they doen't call them "field" courses either. They call them: 1.2.1 General Courses of Fire: 1.2.1.1 “Short Courses” must not require more than 9 rounds to complete and no more than 2 shooting locations. 1.2.1.2 “Medium Courses” must not require more than 16 rounds to complete and no more than 3 shooting locations. Course design and construction must not require more than 9 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to eliminate a location or view in the course of fire by shooting all available targets at an earlier location or view. 1.2.1.3 “Long Courses” must not require more than 32 rounds to complete. Course design and construction must not require more than 9 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to eliminate a location or view in the course of fire by shooting all available targets at an earlier location or view. And here is another rule change we really need. A "Long Course" Must not require needs to be changed to to should not require more than XX rounds per weapons platform, Ok, maybe we have to say per firearm or gun. The problem is that shooting a multigun rifle/pistol stage with a maximum of 32 rounds makes for a very tight short COF. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 What about a per COF magazine capacity limit rule? Since most agree that an all-out mag capacity restriction is not a good idea and that loading only a certain number of rounds has no concession in the rules, nor does mandatory re-loads on field courses - what about giving course designers to say "Maximum magazine capacity for this COF is 30 rds for minor scoring rifles and 20 rds for major scoring rifles." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 Not wanting to look up the rulebook as I just woke up and am packin' for the range, can we still do the, "must perform a mandatory reload while in shooting area A" and call the course a standard exercise? My memory says no as it's the, 'as soon as you take one step, it's a field course' discussion. That said, don't let me design a multi-gun stage. That 32 round limit will be gone before you make the first gun change. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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