Jim Norman Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Gary, I erred in adding L-10 to my earlier comment. You are correct, 9mm major in L-10 doens't change capacity, or the game, BUT it would be a stepping stone to 9mm major in Limited and THAT would change the game. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 You could easily get 24 rounds in a140mm magazine and that could have an impact. Unless there is some super secret powder out there they major 9mm I've shot is HARSH, no way I'd give up the shooting performance of major .40 for 4 rounds of 9mm major in Limited. I know how to reload. I'm sure we'd get that gamed out before too long. SuperComp with 160g bullets has to compare to 40 and 165g bullets. More harsh, sure...stick it in a 6in gun...bull barrel...tungsten this and that... I'm sure we could get it feel softer than my Glock 40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 You could easily get 24 rounds in a140mm magazine and that could have an impact. Unless there is some super secret powder out there they major 9mm I've shot is HARSH, no way I'd give up the shooting performance of major .40 for 4 rounds of 9mm major in Limited. I know how to reload. I'm sure we'd get that gamed out before too long. SuperComp with 160g bullets has to compare to 40 and 165g bullets. More harsh, sure...stick it in a 6in gun...bull barrel...tungsten this and that... I'm sure we could get it feel softer than my Glock 40 Hey I am the only one here professional enough to handle a Glock 40 PS 4.0 grains of 320 and a 160gr would probably shoot just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeInNePa Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 You could easily get 24 rounds in a140mm magazine and that could have an impact. Unless there is some super secret powder out there they major 9mm I've shot is HARSH, no way I'd give up the shooting performance of major .40 for 4 rounds of 9mm major in Limited. I know how to reload. I'm sure we'd get that gamed out before too long. SuperComp with 160g bullets has to compare to 40 and 165g bullets. More harsh, sure...stick it in a 6in gun...bull barrel...tungsten this and that... I'm sure we could get it feel softer than my Glock 40 Hey I am the only one here professional enough to handle a Glock 40 PS 4.0 grains of 320 and a 160gr would probably shoot just fine. I do believe you meant Glock Fo-Tay I love that video. "And here is the Ar15" (shouts form the back ground...."PUT IT DOWN, put it down"..."NO, NO ,no, no") Limit capacity, and it won't matter what you allow for major. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Wonder Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 If we allow .355 as major in Limited and L-10, we add 3-4 rounds to the maximum capacity of a 140mm magazine. This will change the sport and immediately obsolete all .40 cal guns. much as the advent of the doulbe stack .40 pretty much eliminated the .45 as a competative gun in Limited. Yesterday at Topton, one of our shooters was shooting his Glock in Limited, with extended mags, he loads 24+1 vs my ability to load at best 21+1. He didn't need to reload, I did. On a tight COF, this will make a difference. A perfect example of the problem with the sport focusing on equipment races. Limit all pistols to 10 rounds in the mag and this levels the playing field extensively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricBudd Posted November 21, 2006 Author Share Posted November 21, 2006 If we allow .355 as major in Limited and L-10, we add 3-4 rounds to the maximum capacity of a 140mm magazine. This will change the sport and immediately obsolete all .40 cal guns. much as the advent of the doulbe stack .40 pretty much eliminated the .45 as a competative gun in Limited. Yesterday at Topton, one of our shooters was shooting his Glock in Limited, with extended mags, he loads 24+1 vs my ability to load at best 21+1. He didn't need to reload, I did. On a tight COF, this will make a difference. A perfect example of the problem with the sport focusing on equipment races. Limit all pistols to 10 rounds in the mag and this levels the playing field extensively. It isn't OK to obsolete current Limited .40's but is OK to obsolete all capacity challenged .40's & .45's that are not 1911 pattern guns? My original proposal was to 'pee in the pool' of limited shooters and by way of their complaints make the case for limited 10. If capacity isn't a big deal, it isn't a big deal. Maybe Limited .40 could be a category? Leave things the way they are now and lets just shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
driver8M3 Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 The core issue is the equipment rules. As others have noted, if 9mm were allowed to make major in Lim/L-10, it would create a whole new *equipment* race, in which everyone "has to" go get a new 9mm gun built to stay competitive as the capacity changes. We don't want that - we especially don't want to "obsolete" equipment that is currently legal and viable. bruce: major 9mm in limited would not "obsolete" equipment that is currently legal and viable. all of those .40 caliber guns could be legally shot in L-10. i think that's pretty close to the arguments i hear from those who want to impose new production rules..."oh, you can still shoot your G34 with X newly disallowed modification in limited." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 (edited) The BoD has backed themselves into a corner...in the past they did the politically correct thing, creating L10 after the Clinton ban...they bought a pig in a poke when they did that...they worked hard to promote it and now they are wondering how many people they are going to piss off if they do away with it.. The entire equipment race question can be laid at the feet of two things...Extended magazines and 9mm major...eliminate all mag and pads that exceed the normal capacity of any pistol, eliminate 9mm major from the scene and make major 10/40 or larger in every division or category and then just shoot...it makes Limited lots closer to Open, and Production lots closer to Limited...Leave L10 to the Hi cap wide bodies and create SS and there you are... How tough was that... Edited November 21, 2006 by tightloop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 The BoD has backed themselves into a corner...in the past they did the politically correct thing, creating L10 after the Clinton ban...they bought a pig in a poke when they did that...they worked hard to promote it and now they are wondering how many people they are going to piss off if they do away with it..The entire equipment race question can be laid at the feet of two things...Extended magazines and 9mm major...eliminate all mag and pads that exceed the normal capacity of any pistol, eliminate 9mm major from the scene and make major 10/40 or larger in every division or category and then just shoot...it makes Limited lots closer to Open, and Production lots closer to Limited...Leave L10 to the Hi cap wide bodies and create SS and there you are... How tough was that... Except for those one or two open shooters that have their guns chambered in a caliber other than .40 or larger. And how long would it be before STI/SV came out with the super high cap pistol with the 170 mm extended grip. Come on the mag doesn't extend below the grip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moneypenny Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Lets not even go there!!! The reason for the 9mm rule ( and velocity/bullet weight rule) is for safety. thats the only reason open has ANY designations. Leave it alone. granted a few calibers it is unfair to in limited (357sig and 9x23 winchester) other than those. not many 9's can make it safely. Bad idea lets not touch this one with a 10' stick. just too many ramifications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Meek Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Steve, Would that be a L-10' stick. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Lets not even go there!!! The reason for the 9mm rule ( and velocity/bullet weight rule) is for safety. thats the only reason open has ANY designations. Leave it alone. granted a few calibers it is unfair to in limited (357sig and 9x23 winchester) other than those. not many 9's can make it safely. Bad idea lets not touch this one with a 10' stick. just too many ramifications. If 9x19 can make it, MOST of the 9's can too..we can agree to disagree, but I still think those are the answers to stabilization of the mag/ammo race (cause that is what it is, not an arms race)...How is it safe in Open and nowhere else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Limited and L-10, should be limited to .40. The only reason I say this is that factory ammunition is available that safely makes major in this caliber. As there are none in 9mm, it shouldn't...plain and simple. The point of Limited/L-10 is that you should be able to run with a "relatively" stock pistol and some cool gear (race holsters, etc.). You can buy ammo off the shelf and roll. Can't do that with 9mm. Now, the quick answer is lower the power factor (again). I am sooo against this, it's not even comprehensible. I'm upset that it's not at 175, but that's a whole other topic. The original poster threw this into the pot, to (theoretically) induce people into a 'leaving things the way they are' mindset because of other discussions of eliminating L-10. Probably unsuccessful, but his point nevertheless. That said, and this has been said before too, if the BOD chooses to make 9mm legal in Limited, I know personally, I'll have a Brazos BCG Pro Series for sale and will never shoot Limited again. Limited has always been that place where stock "appearing" pistols lived and the shooter's ability moreso than the gun (again theoretically) is what won. There are no dots, comps, etc. Joe Average sees a 1911-ish type pistol, regular mags not sticking out (too far) beyond the magwell and feel like they can run too. The guns are real calibers and have real power (more before but again...another topic). So, if folks want a 9mm bullet in Limited, allow an exemption for 356TSW and 9x25. That'll solve it. You get your little bullet and you're not gaining capacity. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Wonder Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Make the power factor 125 across the board and let all calibers compete equally. Shoot what you've got regardless of caliber......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemo Posted November 29, 2006 Share Posted November 29, 2006 (edited) 9mm major in limited? What seems to be the problem here, Sir? It's already here... Have Dan, Benny or Brazos make you a S_I in 357Sig! Edited November 29, 2006 by Nemo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricBudd Posted November 29, 2006 Author Share Posted November 29, 2006 9mm major in limited? What seems to be the problem here, Sir?It's already here... Have Dan, Benny or Brazos make you a S_I in 357Sig! 357Sig doesn't make Major ibn Limited or Limited 10. .40 or bigger to make Major. Except, of course, for Revolver and Open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omnia1911 Posted November 29, 2006 Share Posted November 29, 2006 The BoD has backed themselves into a corner...in the past they did the politically correct thing, creating L10 after the Clinton ban...they bought a pig in a poke when they did that...they worked hard to promote it and now they are wondering how many people they are going to piss off if they do away with it.. L10 was a reasonable compromise when the ban came into effect. It is not as if all of the divisions were reduced to 10 rounds. L10 is still relevant today. USPSA got backed into a corner by allowing mag capacities to run away. Fortunately, all the divisions that have come after Open and Limited are still under control when it comes to mag capacity. I'm worried that Production will succumb to the pressures to move beyond 10 rounds. I hope it doesn't. The Clinton AWB has created such a stigma with the number 10, or any discussion of mag capacity restrictions. Sometimes it gets in the way of moving USPSA in a positive direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted November 29, 2006 Share Posted November 29, 2006 The BoD has backed themselves into a corner...in the past they did the politically correct thing, creating L10 after the Clinton ban...they bought a pig in a poke when they did that...they worked hard to promote it and now they are wondering how many people they are going to piss off if they do away with it.. L10 was a reasonable compromise when the ban came into effect. It is not as if all of the divisions were reduced to 10 rounds. L10 is still relevant today. USPSA got backed into a corner by allowing mag capacities to run away. Fortunately, all the divisions that have come after Open and Limited are still under control when it comes to mag capacity. I'm worried that Production will succumb to the pressures to move beyond 10 rounds. I hope it doesn't. The Clinton AWB has created such a stigma with the number 10, or any discussion of mag capacity restrictions. Sometimes it gets in the way of moving USPSA in a positive direction. You are so correct about the mag capacities...question is, what are they going to do about it? Have they got the cajones to piss off the Open shooters and back it down to what fits flush with the pistol?...Don't think so, but that is what needs to be done...the Big Stick mags have pushed the CoF past what some people consider reasonable limits..Nothing wrong with letting the Open shooters practice reloading also... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBunin Posted November 29, 2006 Share Posted November 29, 2006 A good point. Why bother with the magwell and fancy mag holders when you can run the entire course in a single magazine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1911user Posted November 29, 2006 Share Posted November 29, 2006 A good point.Why bother with the magwell and fancy mag holders when you can run the entire course in a single magazine? classifier stages? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted November 29, 2006 Share Posted November 29, 2006 Like someone else here said, build a pistol with a 250mm grip and load it up to 40 rounds! So much for "Flush fit" THat is the big problem over in IPSC Production, you get to shoot a high cap 9mm only if you want to be competative. No .40s, 45s or small frame guns, no Sig, no XD, no G-26/27/22/19 You can't carry enough rounds. Keep the mag length rules and the capacity and caliber restrictions we currently have. We have a place for virtually unlimited developement, it is called OPEN, let them play with 9mm Major and other things. In fact, open up Open so that there is more developement. Allow a 250 mag, but only in 40 or 45, see if they can make a gun run built like that and see if anyone buys one. How about a smail drum for an Open gun, only 170 long, but holds 50 rounds? Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 Like someone else here said, build a pistol with a 250mm grip and load it up to 40 rounds! Jim Exactly.. ever see a really old STI basepad-- the big ridged one? That was designed expressly to be "flush fit" with the grip, even though the tube continued on down the basepad. Anybody that wasn't around for that fun should learn their history, lest they be doomed to repeat it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 Like someone else here said, build a pistol with a 250mm grip and load it up to 40 rounds! Jim Exactly.. ever see a really old STI basepad-- the big ridged one? That was designed expressly to be "flush fit" with the grip, even though the tube continued on down the basepad. Anybody that wasn't around for that fun should learn their history, lest they be doomed to repeat it. LOL, I just got 6 more STI mags with that particular basepad and was wondering, "What were they thinking?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 Shred You are just a little peckish, cause you shoot Open.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mapzter Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 (edited) Limited and L-10, should be limited to .40. The only reason I say this is that factory ammunition is available that safely makes major in this caliber. As there are none in 9mm, it shouldn't...plain and simple. Winchester has a 9x23 factory load that makes 182 PF. So, if folks want a 9mm bullet in Limited, allow an exemption for 356TSW and 9x25. That'll solve it. You get your little bullet and you're not gaining capacity. Yeah, and that's the vital point here, IMO. It isn't about safety, it's about not starting another capacity race in Limited. Edited November 30, 2006 by Mapzter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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