Latest Bod Minutes

[steel1212]

Of course, I think that allowing the XD as a production gun was a mistake - it is as much double action as a CZ SA.

Now I don't know a whole lot about the internals of my gun and I'm ashamed to say so....but, if you want to get down to it. The real double action guns are the berettas, sigs and such. If the XD shouldn't be legal, as far as I know, then neither should the glock, MP, etc. Now I'm sure I'll get a beating for saying this and I'm sure I'll be over run with responses from people more in the know but thats the way I see it.

[Ara]

ipscbob, sorry if I get a little defensive over your last comment but I have never suggested that I want everyone shooting similar set-ups. I am merely giving ideas on how maybe to accomidate everyone. I keep hearing the question "are things really broke?". Well, I submit that numbers are "down", regardless of how many new people you get. Fact is, in my area the numbers are about the same but with the usual turnover. But every division has less competitors. I think this is a valid complaint. Once we used to have about 30-40 shooters in Limited alone. Then Production came out and we were down to about 20. The SS came out and now we have at best about 10 in each. How good is that?

In regards to your other comment about "my choices put me out of mainstream"...wow. I shot stock/limited for 17 years (always with a race set up) and now shoot production also. I didn't realize that was out of mainstream.

I don't politic with board members or anyone else for my ideas. In fact, I only offer them when asked, like on this thread. And I've put alot of my own sweat into USPSA, not to change it but help it grow, thru creating clubs/programs, helping other clubs and hosting/creating bigger matches. I guess you're right, that was bad of me and I should find a whole new sport.

[steel1212]

Something that one of the matches I go to does is has a reentry or a second run at the stages after the morning run. People don't shoot the same division so there is more people in each division. I kind of like that idea.

[BBunin]

The problem (if it is a problem) is that shooters are making major modifications to their striker fired pistols so that they are, in effect, single action triggers with a sub 2 lb pulls. There are/were common modifications that change the geometry of the trigger in the name of 'enhanced reliability'. We all know that the changes were about getting a better/lighter trigger pull to gain a competitive advantage.

Of course, I think that allowing the XD as a production gun was a mistake - it is as much double action as a CZ SA.

Huh?

Production isn't about trying to give double action pistols an even playing field.

It's about providing a division where MOST of the firearms that Joe Public might have could play. That's why there's a run minimum and why there was a time limit; to make sure that hte guns were out there. It's about getting new shooters to play and letting them play without breaking the bank.

You're absolutely right about why I have had a trigger job done on my XD. You're absolutely wrong about why I did it. I did it because I prefer a lighter trigger. That's true of my Hunting rifle, my shotgun and almost every one my pistols. Not just the ones that I take to USPSA matches. A LOT of target shooters have 2# triggers. It's not just for competition.

And if you're saying that a lighter trigger makes it easier to shoot accurately, well; Of course! Why is this a bad thing? Should all Production pistols have to have the trigger pull of a Kahr? As was said earlier, AD's have their own penalty. Let people bring what they've got and shoot it, as long as they can do so safely and within the current rules!

And fyi, the reason for me specificly mentioning the XD is twofold:

One, I obvoiusly shoot one.

Two, and more importantly,

It's not currently possible to easily undo an XD trigger job. SA doesn't sell PARTS!

That's something we XD shooters have accepted, but it means that I can either buy a whole new gun, or send it back to SA for a $300+ rebuild. No thanks, I like the gun the way it is.

[GeorgeInNePa]

As I shoot a DA/SA gun, and have to deal with 6.5# first shot on a 50 yd standard, I like it.

TY

JK

What do you shoot JK? CZ? Your first shot is 6.5#. What about subsequent shots? Pure curiosity, I have no clue. If you have a first shot of 6.5# and the other 9 at 1.5#, it may not be much of a disadvantage.

The problem (if it is a problem) is that shooters are making major modifications to their striker fired pistols so that they are, in effect, single action triggers with a sub 2 lb pulls. There are/were common modifications that change the geometry of the trigger in the name of 'enhanced reliability'. We all know that the changes were about getting a better/lighter trigger pull to gain a competitive advantage.

I don't care so much about where we draw the line, but at some point a production gun ceases to be a production gun. If you want to make major modes and shoot a Glock with a 1 1/2 pound trigger, that is fine; it just might not be production.

Of course, I think that allowing the XD as a production gun was a mistake - it is as much double action as a CZ SA.

I know that we race and mod our guns to ge a competie advantage. But maybe, just maybe, Production isn't the place for that.

Eric,

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Every trigger job done on a Production Division gun is done for "competitive advantage" No gun, commonly used in PD, NEEDS a trigger job to "enhance reliabilty". All Glocks, XDs, Sigs, CZs, etc. work just fine out of the box without a trigger job.

The rules allow it, and until now there was no limits mentioned.

[shred]

FWIW, the Trigger Testing Proceedure, as in the current USPSA Rules (and, as such, does not apply unless you're shooting an IPSC-rules match):

APPENDIX F2

Trigger Pull Testing Procedure

When a minimum trigger pull is required by a Division, handguns will be tested

as follows:

1. The unloaded handgun will be prepared as if the handgun is ready to fire a

double action shot;

2. The trigger weight or scale will be attached as closely as possible to the center

of the trigger face;

3. The trigger of the handgun, with the muzzle pointed vertically skywards,

must either:

(a) Raise and hold a 2.27 kg (5lbs) weight, or

( Register not less than 2.27 kg (5lbs) on a scale;

4. One of the above tests will be conducted a maximum of 3 times;

5. If the hammer or striker does not fall on any 1 of the 3 attempts in 3(a)

above, or if the scale registers not less than 2.27 kg (5lbs) in 3( above, the

handgun has passed the test.

6. If the hammer or striker falls on all three (3) attempts in 3(a) above, or if the

scale registers less than 2.27 kg (5lbs) in 3( above, the handgun has failed

the test and Rule 6.2.5.1 will apply.

Seems pretty lenient. You only have to not fire one out of three tries.

[Loves2Shoot]

And it works great for 1911's, not so good for lever type triggers...

[Flexmoney]

I just put my digital trigger gauge into the vise, sitting stright up. With my Glock, and trying to follow step 2 & 3...the trigger safety can't be disengaged.

I can manage to get it to work with my old RCBS gauge, after building up the trigger hook with a lot of masking tape.

FWIW.

[Bigbadaboom]

Motion:Minimum trigger pull - Yes, 3 pounds in hammer fully down/decocked condition

This rule completely and absolutely penalizes striker fired guns. A Berretta, CZ, Ruger, etc. shooter can set their double action "First shot" at 3 lbs. and then set their following single action shots at any weight below 3 lbs. that they wish. Since the rule only applies to the first shot fired this takes the advantage away from striker fired guns which have a consistant pull every time and gives the advantage to hammer fired guns which will only have to deal with a 3 lb. first pull.

It's amaizing how "Unfair" it is to you untill you have the advantage through the rule. If I shot a hammer fired D.A. gun I'ld want the 3 lb. rule too.

My M&P trigger is set at exactly 3.5 lbs and I like it that way but I still think the rule is B.S.

Edited November 29, 2006 by Bigbadaboom

[D.Hayden]

Motion:Minimum trigger pull - Yes, 3 pounds in hammer fully down/decocked condition

A Beretta... shooter can set their double action "First shot" at 3 lbs. and then set their following single action shots at any weight below 3 lbs. that they wish

lol.. thread drift... tell me how!

I went from 12#/8#, to 8#/4#.. and thought I was doing well...

[Bigbadaboom]

Motion:Minimum trigger pull - Yes, 3 pounds in hammer fully down/decocked condition

A Beretta... shooter can set their double action "First shot" at 3 lbs. and then set their following single action shots at any weight below 3 lbs. that they wish

lol.. thread drift... tell me how!

I went from 12#/8#, to 8#/4#.. and thought I was doing well...

I don't have the faintest idea. I'm not a Beretta guy but this guy may be able to tell you.

[D.Hayden]

Well.. not the best example, I think that trigger is already disallowed for Production. (but I'm wrong at least 50% of the time)

Langdon did mine, I've never seen a Beretta trigger anywhere near that before.

[shred]

I just put my digital trigger gauge into the vise, sitting stright up. With my Glock, and trying to follow step 2 & 3...the trigger safety can't be disengaged.

I can manage to get it to work with my old RCBS gauge, after building up the trigger hook with a lot of masking tape.

FWIW.

You might want to ask the IPSC folks.. somehow they've managed since, er, the World Shoot in South Africa or so.

I suspect it involves a high technology solution like a piece of 1/2" rod with a center hole.

[Flexmoney]

I'm sure somebody that wants to can make it work.

However, the stated procedures are questionable.

[Chris Keen]

I've never seen it in action, but somehow we already have a procedure outlined in the green book for measuring trigger pull.

Appendix F2

[Flexmoney]

Yep. Shred posted that (#256). That is what we are currently talking about.

[RIIID]

If the trigger pull test can't be performed by a 6 year old 100% reliable then two things will happen. At the lower level it won't be done and at the national level if it is even attempted they will need to find a 7 year old to try.

Min. trigger pull in Production(this was a piss poor name to begin with) is not needed in my opinion.

They can print any rule they(BOD) want but if it is never enforced(like the last 6 years of rules) why even bother.

I can't wait to get the contract for the "offical" trigger pull gauge so I can retire. USPSA will have to provide every affiliated club with one along with a box. $$$$$$

I can remember when I joined how an Area Dir. would say "USPSA has a million dollars in the bank and will never go below that". The last time I saw it has been below that mark for several years and with proposed rule changes like this it will go even lower. How- decreased membership, decreased mission count, trigger pull gauges, gun boxes..............................

BOD instead of doing the "USPSA Way" that has been done for years, making the membership pay to play by new rules, driving off current members, and make it so potential members don't want to join. Try to do something that will have a positive impact all the way around.

This AD would always listen to complaints, if you had an idea in how to solve it. My idea is stop trying to solve non existent problems. The only problem that USPSA has and will always have is membership. Annually we take in about as many as we loose. I suggested this years ago to many AD's and nothing ever happened.

Create a questionaire to send to past members asking question to why they left, money, rules, family, work.......................................

It needs to have a prepaid return envelope to work and yes I know some of the addresses we have will be wrong but whats the cost of some metered stamps if we actually get some needed answers as to why, instead of guessing. At this point in time it would probably be +40,000. We are approaching a number almost 3 times the current membership number. I think there might be a very small problem, maybe. I could be wrong for the 10 billionth time in my life.

Hell, I even said I would compile the results but, not now. The cost of gauges and boxes can cover a new employee for a year to do this.

Slame away, I could care less, I'm a Lifer and will stay no matter how much it costs,

Rich

[EricBudd]

I can remember when I joined how an Area Dir. would say "USPSA has a million dollars in the bank and will never go below that". The last time I saw it has been below that mark for several years and with proposed rule changes like this it will go even lower. How- decreased membership, decreased mission count, trigger pull gauges, gun boxes..............................

BOD instead of doing the "USPSA Way" that has been done for years, making the membership pay to play by new rules, driving off current members, and make it so potential members don't want to join. Try to do something that will have a positive impact all the way around.

Rich

I agree that we need to increase membership and that any rule changes should take that into account. The last thing I need as a match director is more restrictive rules that makes it harder for me to get new shooters involved.

Without addressing specific rules, here are a few of my thoughts:

1. Have a standard approved new shooter training program.
   
2. Have a simplified rule book/pamphlet that covers the basics for new shooters. New shooters don't want to read a 100 page rule book.
   
3. Provide activity credits to clubs that send in new membership applications.
   
4. Have marketing material focus more on Production, L10, and SSD instead of Open.
   

I also think a part of getting new shooters in the sport is having places to shoot locally. If possible, I think an effort should be made to get more USPSA clubs started and make it easier for clubs to get started. I know from my experiences last year that it isn't easy.

Having a guide to getting a club started with limited finances and help would be a great resource. Explain what you need, at minimum, and how to build it inexpensively. Also list recommended resources for timers, steel, and props.

Eric

Edited November 30, 2006 by EricBudd

[Chuck D]

"BOD instead of doing the "USPSA Way" that has been done for years, making the membership pay to play by new rules, driving off current members, and make it so potential members don't want to join. Try to do something that will have a positive impact all the way around."

Agreed....

What USPSA needs is one set of stable rules that once their put into place...stay that way for a minimum of 5 years. Settle the PSSD rules, work out this "deal" with IPSC, solidify the number of Divisions....then leave the rules alone.

USPSA changes rules as much as mother nature changes the weather pattern in Western N.Y.

"I can remember when I joined how an Area Dir. would say "USPSA has a million dollars in the bank and will never go below that". The last time I saw it has been below that mark for several years and with proposed rule changes like this it will go even lower. How- decreased membership, decreased mission count, trigger pull gauges, gun boxes.............................."

Until it adversely effects the wallet...

[EricBudd]

What USPSA needs is one set of stable rules that once their put into place...stay that way for a minimum of 5 years. Settle the PSSD rules, work out this "deal" with IPSC, solidify the number of Divisions....then leave the rules alone.

USPSA changes rules as much as mother nature changes the weather pattern in Western N.Y.

+1

Once the 2008 rules are published they should be fixed to 2013. (5 years)

Eric

[ysued]

What USPSA needs is one set of stable rules that once their put into place...stay that way for a minimum of 5 years. Settle the PSSD rules, work out this "deal" with IPSC, solidify the number of Divisions....then leave the rules alone.

USPSA changes rules as much as mother nature changes the weather pattern in Western N.Y.

AMEN to that Chuck!!

I have said that all along!!

Every time someone finds a new Trinket, Gizmo or wants to take a Milling machine to a gun, we contact John Amidon/NROI and requests a Ruling!! Heck, I have done exactly that!!

And because of that, the rules get changed, amended or modified!!!

NO MORE!!!

If we finally hammer out a new set of rules, clarified and without ANY loopholes, let them be.

After 5 or 6 years, all the suggestions offered by the membership will be reviewed and the rules will be modified!!

If the rules are written "RIGHT" in the first time, RULINGS WON'T BE NEEDED!!

So, let's put an effort into making clear, concise rules without ANY loopholes that won't need an NROI Ruling within the first 6 months!!

We are in Deep Kimchee due to a bad set of rules that found it necessary for NROI to issue countless rulings (some good and some terribly bad(IMHO)) over the last 5years.

I don't want to repeat myself, there's modifications that were allowed that IMHO should have never been allowed and now members are crying hardship because the BOD wants to change the rules.

I have said this several times before, the rules have gone through several changes since I joined, and I only joined in 94. Sometimes changes are good, we shoot 40caliber Fat Guns, 170mm mags, 140mm mags, Compensators, Scopes, and several other Gizmos because of Changes. And now we are stuck with Milled Bomars and a never ending list of Modifications done to Production guns due to changes!! (You can see I'm against those Changes to the Production Rules)

I've also said this before, I'm against the Trigger Pull Limit Rule, not because of the 3lb limit but because of the enforcement part!!! I don't care how you phrase it, it's going to suck to Enforce this rule!! IMHO, they should have placed a Limit like IPSC right from the get go, not now 5 years later!!!

Particular rule from IPSC that should have been implemented here should have been this one:

20.2 Aftermarket sights of the same type and kind offered by the OFM for the approved handgun are permitted, provided their installation and/or adjustment requires no alteration to the handgun.

Then again, I don't see an "REAL" competitive advantage with the Milled sights, I still think it goes against the "SPIRIT" of the division!!

Let's work, all of us together and create a good set of rules and stick with them for over 6 months without wanting to change them because some manufacturer came out with some kewl bell or whistle!!

+1

Once the 2008 rules are published they should be fixed to 2013. (5 years)

Eric

And no more E-Mailing NROI/Amidon by June of 08 wanting a Ruling on a new Chingadera that you want to glue, Screw ot Weld to your Production gun to enhance reliability, wait the 5 years!!

[Nemo]

And no more E-Mailing NROI/Amidon by June of 08 wanting a Ruling on a new Chingadera that you want to glue, Screw ot Weld to your Production gun to enhance reliability, wait the 5 years!!

What's a CHINGADERA? Does my XD have one? I want one before they're outlawed!

[ysued]

And no more E-Mailing NROI/Amidon by June of 08 wanting a Ruling on a new Chingadera that you want to glue, Screw ot Weld to your Production gun to enhance reliability, wait the 5 years!!

What's a CHINGADERA? Does my XD have one? I want one before they're outlawed!

Too late!!

Chingaderas were outlawed in the 2008 book!!

BTW, Chingaderas were Invented buy Guy Hammond in Gilbert, AZ back in 1994!!

[Alan Meek]

While a stabilized set of rules is a good idea, tell me how they will stay stable with the advances of technology and new equipment designs.

Aditionally getting the rules to where there are no grey area and eeryhting is black and white will also be a monumental task.

If there is a stability of rules that in itself will be a death keel to the sport too.

Difficult line to walk on both sides of the topic.

Alan

[EricBudd]

While a stabilized set of rules is a good idea, tell me how they will stay stable with the advances of technology and new equipment designs.

Aditionally getting the rules to where there are no grey area and eeryhting is black and white will also be a monumental task.

If there is a stability of rules that in itself will be a death keel to the sport too.

Difficult line to walk on both sides of the topic.

Alan

New technology and new designs can play in Open. When the rule book is up for review again in 2013 we can decide if the new technology has a place in the other divisions.