Frustrated

[bierman]

When did it become apparent in your shooting that your gun was holding you back? I am not saying that it is entirely my gun, but I know that it is limiting me somewhat. I shoot an "experienced" Beretta 92FS in Production. It has had almost no work done on it, just replaced the factory mainspring with the 96D mainspring to lighten the trigger somewhat. The gun has fixed sights and shoots about 3" to the left. The trigger sucks, the sights are too small and it is not an inherently accurate gun. It gives me fits on long distance targets. The last match I shot in had some very small steel plates on every stage and I got my butt handed to me on them. Again, I know that it is not just the guns fault, but I am getting frustrated with the Beretta. I have shot a buddy's S_I after a match and was able to clean the plate rack with it in much less time than with my Beretta.

I know that ultimately it is the indian, not the arrow, but at the same time, you don't see too many GM's competing with stock, beginner guns. If the gun does not make a difference why do we spend so much on them? Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[shooterbenedetto]

The Gun does make a difference.. besides the shooter and skills to be build up and learn, you need to take the gun out of the equation and have one build that is 100% reliable..

[toowide]

this game is about speed, power and accuracy. if your weapon wont perform properly, it doesnt matter if you are a gm. you said it was the indian and not the arrow.... well no indian ever killed a buffalo with a broken bow. if you cant afford a new gun at least get some new sights for the one you have. good luck.

[sandman_sy]

As a beginer too(6 months), i usually worry bout my ability to run the course smoothly. Cause i know that my gun my will do its job... having doubts with your gun gives you the disadvantage on the mental game... you won't have self confidence.. and that will cost time:P You mentioned about your gun shooting left... gotta have a ZEROED gun by cruch time.. its hard to estimate especially with different target distance.

just my two centavos.

Edited October 30, 2006 by sandman_sy

[big_kahuna]

Bierman, my heart broke when I read your post. I know how you feel. Sparing you my own tales of woe, here is some info that may help.

One of the firearm-operator schools I attended has a motto of "any gun will do if you will do"... any gun, that is, that has four fundamental attributes: reliability, readily visible sights that overlay the POI, a trigger that allows you to break the shot while the sights are on target, and "acceptable" accuracy (whatever that means to YOU and no one else).

The GMs have these four attributes covered. Some do it with $4K S*I, some with a $400 Glock. If you don't have all four of these attributes covered, you should get 'em covered asap. You can do it cheap or expensive, however you want. Consult a reputable gunsmith and determine if the deficiencies are fixable, and find out how much it will cost. The cost may be more than you want to spend; if so, you can look buying a 4:4 gun to replace that 92F.

If these options don't work for you, you have one last viable choice:

- keep the 92F, play kentucky windage, and lower your expectations.

Shooting the old 92F can still be fun, as long as you can accept her shortcomings.

Best of luck to you.

Edited October 30, 2006 by big_kahuna

[half inch groups]

After shooting 1911 single stacks so long, I thought it couldnt get any better to shoot, but the "custom" factory guns. I havent competed yet, but I wanted too for some time. business is good, so I just recenty purchased a custom built 2011 limited .40, and from the 1st mag, I was in love. I have been DROSing the gun at my range so I can shoot it and I already put 3500+ rds. through her. I practically took the week off and shot 7 straight days, took friday off, and I get to take her home tuesday. I am ADDICTED. not to shooting...

but shooting this gun. It's unexplainable. Just compare your berretta that probably does "shoot 3" high to the left" as a fiat. Where S_i's are ferrari's... . this is coming from a guy who has been shooting shy of 25 years, and never once shot in competition. I'm only 32, and I dont care if I ever actually compete or not, but if i do; I want to make sure I have the right tool for the job. If your looking into production class, maybe a double stack 1911 might be more accurate and parts/smiths are a dime a dozen in this country. 90+ years our country depended on 1911's. It's the platform that these competitions originated from. I bought a used S/A Trophy Match for $550, and after a little polishing and some spring replacements. I had me a perfect gun to shoot production, or Limited 10. I sold her to help pay for the S_I, but what the hell eh? I have a kimber custom II to shoot production and have a .38s. mil-spec open gun now, as I now have me S_! for limited.. I might be more addicted to buying and building these things than I am shootin em! but i shoot plenty so maybe not.. Its better than drugs!

[bierman]

Thanks for the replies so far guys. They are greatly appreciated.

When I started shooting competitively a couple of years ago, I was fairly happy with the Beretta. I shot mostly outlaw matches and LEO matches and I did fairly well, winning the occasional local match. I joined USPSA last December and managed to make B class in Production for my initial classification. I have found, as I shoot more matches and see more COF's, that the accuracy and speed requirements may be more than my gun can handle without serious modification.

I initially started with the Beretta because it was what I carried at work. I have sinced left law enforcement and have begun thinking about going to a different gun. I shot a local match in East Texas a few months ago and did pretty good with my Beretta (it was a special classifier match with 4 classifier stages) but a couple of older gentlemen who have been around USPSA a while commented to me that I could really cook if I switched to a good Limited gun. That comment planted a seed and I have grown less and less happy with my Beretta ever since. I really want to start playing in Limited (yes, I know the water is deeper), but I am giving serious consideration to the XD40 from Canyon Creek for a new Production gun. Maybe I am just looking for an excuse to buy new guns...

[sargenv]

Right now I think my 002 Revolver holster is holding me back a little bit. No matter what I do, I can't seem to break a second on the draw. It has too much drag, and I don't feel comfortable chopping so much off that it has retention issues. It may be time for me to upgrade to a CR speed. Otherwise, I feel that I'm still improving and look forward to earning my B and maybe A card next year

Vince

[uscbigdawg]

It became apparent that the 1911 that I was waiting on really needed to get done when I ended up in a man-on-man (no handicap) against Russ Wakida with my Taurus PT100 and my nylon $5 holster against his Limcat Open blaster. Luck of the draw my ass (it was the finals though). Gun had ran flawless for 2 years and then jammed at the third popper. Gene Shuey looked at me and said, "it's okay, with that pistol/holster you didn't have a chance". He was right, but it still pissed me off.

Many 1911/2011's later, I'm now at a point, where my game is purely mental. If I'm on, bring it! If I'm off....where's my Taurus (at least then I'd have an excuse ).

I still have that first 1911, and at the time during my time as a poor college student, as much as it hurt the finances to get, doing it right always makes things cheaper. Patience for good deals that just happen to pop up (I found a full Safariland rig at a random gun shop in LA, e.g.), will make things easier, but the occasional suckin' it up and diggin' deep in the pockets for parts/accessories is necessary.

Hope that helped.

Rich

[John Dunn]

Dude, you need a new gun. It needs to be accurate, it needs to have sights you like, it needs to hit point of aim, it needs a good trigger, it needs to run. Sounds like the 92F runs, but other than that isn't the best choice. Get a new gun!

[BSeevers]

Comparing a 92 to a S_I this way is incorrect.

Your Beretta is a very competitive gun in Production assuming that it works and has normal accuracy. A S_I is illegal to use in Production and is of course a better gun so that's why its in L, L10, and Open. I would probably get a real trigger job on the 92 if I stayed with it but you asked how many GM's shoot a Beretta well None in Limited but I'll bet some in Production.

You know Production Nationals was "won" by a Springfield XD and a CZ and Glock were runners up. Here is the bare truth. All 3 could have had a Beretta and they would more than likely still be the top three, still.

"If the gun does not make a difference why do we spend so much on them? Any thoughts would be appreciated"

The gun has to be reliable and accurate. Of course a Bersa or the like can not play but most good guns can. $700-850 gets you a gun like the champions shoot in Production add 1-2K or so for a S_I. Don't forget new gear and probably different ammo and reloading stuff.

If you want to win you must set goals practice and practice. Oh and practice and practice. Now if you don't like Production well that's a good reason to buy a S_I then Come On In the waters warm.

Don't take this wrong, I mean it generically but a lot of new people see the raceguns think they can buy an A card,buy a nice one, and get dissappointed and quit. Maybe they would have quit anyway? Related to this there are usually good deals on hardly used S_I's every week.

Edited October 30, 2006 by BSeevers

[half inch groups]

Rich built my open mil-spec and its beautiful. he loves those xd's! you'll probably spend less on the XD than you will fixing your berretta. I swear the gov. gave leo and the military m-9's to give criminals and insurgents half a chance.. I have one and it hasnt been fired in 10 years. it was my dads so i wont part with it. if it wasnt, I would of sold it or chucked it at a target by now. good luck!

[CaseyJ]

bierman,

I know a couple guys who shoot 92's in production. one of the guys actually uses a M9 with tthe worst trigger i have ever seen. he also uses this gun in limited and routinely kicks butt at matches in our club, he is A class in production and b in Lim. he uses factory ammo that is making way over 150 PF where as most are using mouse fart ammo. Just really practice more with it. get some snap caps, load them up in your mag with some real ammo in a random order and whatch where your front sight goes when the snap cap surprises you. I thought I was shooting pretty darn good until I did this in a friend's pistol and forund that I was anticipating a little. (could be the reason i fired 45 rounds at a 3 plate racks at 25 yds in a 21 round COF.)

Just some things to think of.

[Flexmoney]

The gun has fixed sights and

shoots about 3" to the left.

The trigger sucks,

the sights are too small

and it is not an inherently accurate gun.

It gives me fits on long distance targets.

[bierman]

Don't take this wrong, I mean it generically but a lot of new people see the raceguns think they can buy an A card,buy a nice one, and get dissappointed and quit. Maybe they would have quit anyway? Related to this there are usually good deals on hardly used S_I's every week.

Yeah, I realize you can't "buy" a higher classification, I just wonder if its kind of a diminishing returns situation. Is the effort needed to make the Beretta truly competitive worth the return I will get on it? Or should I just cut my losses and go to something different? I guess it really boils down to do I want to stay in Production and maybe switch to an XD or bite the bullet and make the leap to Limited?

Flex, that cartoon is exactly how I feel sometimes.

Thanks again, guys, for all of the input.

[clown]

I started out in production with a beretta 92fs and won some matches but found that the gun was a bit too thick for my hands. With that being said, the gun ran great, was accurate enough to clean the plates, and had a nice feel during recoil. if you plan to keep it, clean up the trigger and find out why its shooting left. let other people shoot it and see if they get the same results. its easy to milk the trigger on a beretta. seems like the sear breaks deeper than other guns. and remember that its a combat accurate gun. its not going to shoot like guns with fitted barrels.

i think most of the beretta shooters are shooting the vertec.

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello; I'm still new to most of this stuff but can tell you from other sports I've done that you are the one that will know when your equipment needs to be replaced. It is totally a mental thing but will effect your shooting. I would look at what class you want to shoot then decide if you can afford the time and money to get where you want to go. Production with a XD would be a good choice, I almost did that but decided to do single stack. With a single stack you can shoot multiple classes. Saying that I also built a 2011 for limited. You will decide which gun to buy and still have fun with it. Hope this helps. Thanks Eric

[al503]

I'm still new to most of this stuff but can tell you from other sports I've done that you are the one that will know when your equipment needs to be replaced.

Very well put.

[dfwmiket]

Keith,

If you want to stay in Production, I'd recommend snagging up a CZ-- Matt Mink/Angus could trick it out pretty nicely, and you wouldn't have a ton of cash invested in it. You know you are always welcome to shoot one of my Glocks...but I know the story there.

-Mike

[bierman]

Thanks Mike. I may actually take you up on that offer just to see if a different gun would make any difference. I will let you know. Thanks again.

[kevin c]

Short version - your gun is holding you back because it doesn't do what you need it to do, as laid out by BK and John Dunn, and you have enough experience to recognise this. A Beretta can be competitive in Production, but yours in its current condition is not.

You already know that you can outshoot the gun you have. Further improvement in your skills requires that the gun shoot better than you do, not the other way around. It is worth pointing out again, though, that comparing a single action to a traditional double action, especially when the former is built for competition and the latter is a service sidearm, is not doing the second gun justice.

If you want to stay in Production, your choices are to fix the gun you have or do up another. If you are thinking of other divisions, then other types of guns are available and are generally considered better options. If you're not sure, or want to be flexible. consider a gun like a Glock which can shoot across several sports/divisions, and which doesn't break the bank starting out, even after being tricked up some.

Of course, you can go and drop two or three grand right off the bat, but it's not like it is an absolutely necessary step towards being a better and more satisfied shooter.

FWIW,

Kevin C

[38supPat]

Look at where you'd like to go in this sport. Do you enjoy shooting in production or would you rather step into Open or Limited?

I too started, long, long ago with a Beretta 92. It gave me some of the same issues you speak of, but overall was a very competent gun...for what it was. I decided I wanted to play a bit more seriously and since there wasn't a whole lot available for the Beretta, or many 'smiths willing to play with one, I bought a Glock 17. I had a local smith who did a lot of experimental stuff with my gun and we got it pretty competitive. Of course I quickly realized that what I really wanted was to go full race, so the Glock only lasted me a year before I sold it to buy a full race P-9.

Granted this was back in the early '90s before we had divisions. No limited/Standard, no production, single stack or any other variation of a non-race gun.

So before you buy something new, take a hard look at what you'd really like to be shooting in the future. Instead of buying a new XD, S_I, Glock or whatever, save your money to get what you really want to be shooting.

[Matt Griffin]

I also started with a 92, and frankly, it was a hell of a gun. It was reliable to the point that having never broken it all the way down, it functioned 100% flawlessly for the first 5000 rounds and 15 years of ownership. This is stock springs in everything. That's one HUGE point in favor of any gun; there's nothing sadder than a 3k$ Open gun that won't run. The difference between an Open GM time and a Production B time is quickly eaten up by a single failure to feed.

As for accuracy, if your Beretta is shooting more than an inch worse than the most expensive IPSC pistol made at 25 yards, there is something mechanically wrong beyond the brand. A stock Beretta is competently accurate, like most non-bargain pistols, and that's plenty for IPSC.

The trigger? Medium, I'd reckon. There's a lot to be said for the difference between SA and DA/SA, and the 92 DA pull is HAAAAARD. The single action pull has nothing inherently wrong with it, IMHO. I moved from a 92 to a 96 Elite II, and there is a big difference, but it's not one that held me back, it just allowed me to focus on other things. A stock Glock trigger is a much bigger piece of crap, and I now shoot Glocks competitively and successfully. Flexmoney will tell you that a stock Glock trigger, with the .25$ job, is all you need to get to GM, and he should know. He's also much much better than me.

The short and nasty is this: Coming in as B, you're a hell of a shot to begin with. B class in IPSC/USPSA is Master or better in everything else. The bits that are the main problem are probably all the non-shooting bits: grip, stance, movement, reloads, planning, etc. My 92 never failed to hit what the sights were aligned upon, provided I pulled the trigger.

If you want to move, then move. But do so because the gun inherently fits you better, as Glocks and their fairly unique grip angle fit me. Among DA/SA guns, I don't think that a 92 has anything against it until you have to worry about beating Robbie at Nationals.

H.

[jessej]

well, i'll add my opinion for whatever it's worth. it is true that it's the indian not the arrow. but how well do you think we could do with a crappy bow or mediocre arrows? not very well, right? i believe the first step in any successful endeavor is getting yourself to a space/place that you feel completely confident in yourself. and accumulating the gear you want/need is just another fun part of the game. i definitely would not be shooting a pistol that was three inches to the left. that just creates another variable for you to have to deal with. keep it simple and keep those sights aligned. and buy Brian's book!

good luck on your quest!

[Lee Bell]

Just really practice more with it. get some snap caps, load them up in your mag with some real ammo in a random order and whatch where your front sight goes when the snap cap surprises you.

What great advice. I shot revolvers for years and, like everyone else, I suppose, I'd leave an empty chamber now and then to check for flinch and other problems I know I'm prone to have. Until now, I hadn't a clue how to do the same thing with an autoloader. I never even thought of snap caps.

Thanks.

Lee