Poppers

[Bwana Six-Gun]

What are the advantages and/or disadvantages of forward falling poppers? From what I read about them at the Open/Production Nationals this year, the forward falling seem to have some problems in calibration and reliability. Our club uses the the backward falling and unless the ground gets really soft and the bases begin to settle we have not had any problems.

[Tom Mainus]

Safety is the main issue. Impossible for a bullet to use the popper as a ramp out of the range with a forward falling popper.

[ihatepickles]

The forward falling poppers don't fall over in the wind. They don't need calibration for light loads. In theory they fall over with the lightest hits.

There's another thread with pictures of 5-6 different designs, but I didn't search very hard.

[Jake Di Vita]

As is the case most of the time...Theory does not always work in the real world.

Give me a regular backward falling popper any day over a forward falling.

[uscbigdawg]

Forward falling poppers are the work of the devil.

Rich

ETA: THE DEVIL I TELL YOU!

Edited October 30, 2006 by uscbigdawg

[richardschennberg]

EVIL, definition, supplemental: mixing forward and backward falling poppers in the same stage.

[ihatepickles]

As is the case most of the time...Theory does not always work in the real world.

Yeah, I chose my words carefully...

I think the FFP will get tweaked and work out OK. I hate those windy day matches with 100 reshoots.

[wide45]

Good foward falling poppers are a delight. Bad steel of any kind is torture.

One point to consider with forward falling, is that they no longer recognise power factor. They fall the same to any hit.

[EZ Bagger]

One point to consider with forward falling, is that they no longer recognise power factor. They fall the same to any hit.

From a strictly local club match perspectice...who gives a hoot? We have hellacious winds at times and anything other than our excellent FFP's (See SA Friday's posts/pictures) just don't allow us to use them. It really is a shame to have an entire match with no options for steel activated targets.

Don't let the steel from the Nationals sour you on FFP's.

Edited October 30, 2006 by EZ Bagger

[Flexmoney]

Don't let the steel from the Nationals sour you on FFP's.

+1

[smokshwn]

IMO the FFP will eventually be the only popper in our sport. As the liability of a round exiting the range gets greater, due to urban encroachment on ranges or the restrictions placed on new ranges, the rearward falling popper will at some point cease to exist.

Edited October 30, 2006 by smokshwn

[chuckw]

IMO the FFP will eventually be the only popper in our sport. As the liability of a round exiting the range gets greater, due to urban encroachment on ranges or the restrictions placed on new ranges, the rearward falling popper will at some point cease to exist.

I think you're right but that means power becomes less important.

[Jim Norman]

IMO the FFP will eventually be the only popper in our sport. As the liability of a round exiting the range gets greater, due to urban encroachment on ranges or the restrictions placed on new ranges, the rearward falling popper will at some point cease to exist.

I think you're right but that means power becomes less important.

Actually it may just mean that we'll need a chrono at all match leveles. Probably should anyway since Poppers only recognize minor PF now anyway.

Jim

[zhunter]

At the Florida Section Match last month, we had a stage where normal popper (i.e. rearward falling ) activated a swinger. The Popper fell very slowly, and it was the first shot of the stage, so we were "driving it down" with multiple hits to speed up the swinger activation. That is not possible on a FFP as it would slow down the progrees of the activation.

Just a comment, don't shoot me for it

[lynn jones]

One point to consider with forward falling, is that they no longer recognise power factor. They fall the same to any hit.

not true. the power factor is not based on steel targets. it's based on paper targets.

lynn

[Jake Di Vita]

Then with the death of the rearward falling popper, they have to kill using steel plates as well. If you hit a steel plate in the upper half...that round is leaving the range.

[Nik Habicht]

Then with the death of the rearward falling popper, they have to kill using steel plates as well. If you hit a steel plate in the upper half...that round is leaving the range.

Nope, just reengineer them to be hinged forward falling plates or use steel challenge style fixed plates that are painted after every shooter.....

[Jake Di Vita]

I've never seen a forward falling plate before...although I guess it wouldn't be impossible...but you are talking about a big cost to clubs across the country. I don't think fixed plates would work either...."steel must fall to score" comes to mind.

[omnia1911]

One point to consider with forward falling, is that they no longer recognise power factor. They fall the same to any hit.

not true. the power factor is not based on steel targets. it's based on paper targets.

lynnJoneswiderecognize

4.2.2 Paper targets must have scoring lines and non-scoring borders

clearly marked on the face of the target, however, scoring lines

and non-scoring borders should not be visible beyond a distance

of 10 meters (32.81 feet). The scoring zones

reward power

in

IPSC matches.

4.3.1.1 IPSC Poppers, which must be calibrated as specified in

Appendix C, are approved metal targets designed to

recognize

power

.

4.3.1.2 IPSC Mini Poppers, which must be calibrated as specified

in Appendix C, are approved metal targets designed to

recognize

power

and are intended to simulate regular sized

Poppers placed at greater distances.

A hit on a steel target that falls is equal to a hit in the “A” zone of a paper target.

APPENDIX C2

All Poppers – Scoring value: 5 points (Minor and Major)

I can set up a stage that has only the “A” zone of a paper target available for scoring. The rest of each paper target can be painted black and considered hard cover. In this case, a paper target will not recognize power.

4.3.1.4 Various sizes of metal plates may be used (see Appendix

C3), however, metal plates must not be used exclusively in

a course of fire.

At least one authorized paper target or IPSC

Popper must be included in each course of fire

.

One has to assume that the sentence above in bold print has been included in this rule because it is believed that both paper and popper targets recognize and reward power, but yet the rule book does not prevent me from setting up a stage with plates and paper targets with only the "A" zone available for scoring.

Does a paper target really recognize or measure power?

Does a Metric paper target and a Classic paper target equally measure power and assign a point value?

Can a paper target distinguish between someone shooting a 164.9 and 165.0 PF? No, but we have decided to reward/score these two power factors differently even though there is no distinguishable difference in gun control or muzzle flip.

Targets should be used for scoring/rewarding purposes only. Only the chrono should be used for recognizing/measuring power.

Edited October 30, 2006 by omnia1911

[L9X25]

At the Florida Section Match last month, we had a stage where normal popper (i.e. rearward falling ) activated a swinger. The Popper fell very slowly, and it was the first shot of the stage, so we were "driving it down" with multiple hits to speed up the swinger activation. That is not possible on a FFP as it would slow down the progrees of the activation.

Just a comment, don't shoot me for it

That was a particularly bad situation, they gave you NOTHING else to shoot while waiting for the swinger to appear so the stage encouraged you to drive it down. On one particular squad, I heard people hitting it 6 to 7 times before engaging the swinger ... bet that 4 or 5 shots left the range on one shooter alone.

[smokshwn]

Then with the death of the rearward falling popper, they have to kill using steel plates as well. If you hit a steel plate in the upper half...that round is leaving the range.

I've never seen a forward falling plate before...although I guess it wouldn't be impossible...but you are talking about a big cost to clubs across the country. I don't think fixed plates would work either...."steel must fall to score" comes to mind.

Though you might think so, its really not that hard to give a steel plate enough of an angle to direct a round downward regardless of where it is hit. As a matter of fact, a large majority of the stationary steel that you see from MGM, Action Target, et al. is angled this way.

As far as cost goes, I don't think anyone is suggesting this has to happen by next week, but as ranges replace steel, or buy more they can move towards inpenetrable targets that are designed to direct rounds downward in a much safer direction. Also when you think about it why would a range, shooting sport, sanctioning organization etc choose to not improve its choice of targets in order to increase not only safety but to also show that there is a conscious effort to minimize risk.

[Nik Habicht]

One has to assume that the sentence above in bold print has been included in this rule because it is believed that both paper and popper targets recognize and reward power, but yet the rule book does not prevent me from setting up a stage with plates and paper targets with only the "A" zone available for scoring.

Does a paper target really recognize or measure power?

Does a Metric paper target and a Classic paper target equally measure power and assign a point value?

Can a paper target distinguish between someone shooting a 164.9 and 165.0 PF? No, but we have decided to reward/score these two power factors differently even though there is no distinguishable difference in gun control or muzzle flip.

Targets should be used for scoring/rewarding purposes only. Only the chrono should be used for recognizing/measuring power.

Poppers recognize power in that they shouldn't fall to a subminor hit. Paper targets reward power, in that hits Non-Alpha scoring zones count more for major loads than they do for minor. And yes, it's theoretically possible to desing a stage that ignores all of that......

IIRC from my RO seminar in 2002, the intent of 4.3.1.4 was to ensure that we wouldn't decide to mix steel challenge or NRA Action Pistol like stages into the middle of a USPSA match......

I've never seen a forward falling plate before...although I guess it wouldn't be impossible...but you are talking about a big cost to clubs across the country. I don't think fixed plates would work either...."steel must fall to score" comes to mind.

Yup, you'd need a rules change to allow for the second part of my thought. I'd imagine the BOD would be receptive to at least looking at/discussing the options if steel were to become a pervasive safety problem for ranges around the country.

[omnia1911]

Poppers recognize power in that they shouldn't fall to a subminor hit.

Why shouldn't they fall from any hit?

A popper can only recognize the minor PF minimum of 125 with the methods we use now. So, of what use is the calibration of poppers? Is it to catch those cheating on their declared PF? It can't recognize a 165 PF minimum for those shooting major.

If a popper fails to fall from a hit, why isn't the shooter's ammo tested to see if it makes the declared PF as part of the calibration test?

Just what is the point of calibrating the poppers?

Paper targets reward power, in that hits Non-Alpha scoring zones count more for major loads than they do for minor.

Scoring zone dimensions on paper targets and major/minor point values assigned to them is strictly an arbitrary decision by those that designed this game. I have no problem with that, but the idea that the scoring zone dimensions and point values have a direct correlation to one's chronographed PF is a stretch.

Edited October 31, 2006 by omnia1911

[EricW]

Creating a metal plate that's angled forward and still falls when hit is really no big deal.

Sooner or later we're going to have to sit down as a sport with clubs, USPSA, and manufacturers all at the same table and discuss basic standards of both safety and reliability of operation. It won't be the end of the world, it's merely a logical step in creating a safer range environment and reducing overall liability.

[shred]

I believe the edge hit on steel is probably more worrisome issue than what direction they fall. I haven't thought of a good solution to that beyond placing them close to a berm and hoping.