Nationals Format

[joer]

Regarding "Carmoney's" comments about most of us having jobs - What are the thoughts about 18 stages in 4 days? The first day we shot 2 stages, and the fourth we shot 3. I can only pull the handle on Roger's bullet feeder so much!

I enjoyed shooting the Back to Back Nationals last year - but with two different venues at two different times, that becomes excessive.

How about 18 stages in 2 days, and have Limited and Open in the same week? Sometime earlier in the year also when there is a little more daylight? There has to be a way to have more people shoot also to increase revenue somewhat. I believe that USPSA management are the same for both matches, so costs should decrease also.

[Jim Norman]

A couple items to consider here.

If you have a back to back Nationals, you need a day between to rearrange the stages. Registration on Sunday, shoot Monday and Tuesday, Awards Wednesday while the stages are being rest, registration Wednesday while the stages are being reset. shoot Thursday and Friday, Awards Saturday.

Makes for a VERY BUSY week.

A single large combined match might be a better idea.

Shoot over 5 days, that gives us 10 shooting periods. and a possibility of 30 stages assuming that we register on Sunday and award on Saturday. If we split Monday afternoon and Friday Morning in half we have 24 available slots. This is probably more viable. 24 slots time AM/PM = 48 available shooting times, with 10 people per squad, we can host 480 shooters in one week. We can probably push that up to about 576 with 12 on a squad. BUT it gets really tight. If you figure only 3 minutes a shooter, allow 5 minutes stage to stage and 5 minutes to walk. add in a little fluff time, you have 5 hours to a flight, add in one hour for lunch and you have an 11 hour day. First shot at 0800, last shot @ 1900. You'll likely have an RO revolt!

With 10 on a squad, you reduce the time required to 10 hours, a slight bit better.

Where does this leave us? I think we are looking at a continuation of the two separate Nationals each run over a 4 day period.

One thing to consider is not just the number of slots, but also the number of shooters that want to shoot. If we combine 6 Nationals into one, we will not have 6x the shooters. How many people shoot multiple Nationals? These people only count once! They will have to choose which gun to shoot. No more chances to see Robbie and Dave and Todd shoot against each other in Limited or Production.

The one thing I would really like to see is the moving of the Nationals to a Friday end day. This allows almost everyone to drive in to Tulsa. (Assuming of course that we return to Tulsa.) This would be especially helpful in the case of either a Multi-Gun or Three Gun Nationals.

One thing that everyone always forgets when they start to schedule a match is to do the math. Your longest stage and largest/slowest squad sets the pace for the whole match. As an example, one squad of 10 that takes 4 minutes to clear a stage and 5 minutes to walk between, 2 minutes to hear the WSB and 5 minutes more to walk the stage will shoot a 10 stage match in 8 hours and 40 minutes. This assumes that all stages are equal. Now, take 10 squads and put them into the match. All squads now have to shoot that one stage that takes 52 minutes to clear. The 10 squads will finish in 8 hours and 40 minutes. Even if all the other stages take one minute of total time. Everyone has to shoot the long and slow stage.

Just my thoughts.

Jim

[Waltermitty]

It's phenomenal what people will do for, what, 10 minutes of actual shooting?

Jim hits the nail on the head. It's the Theory Of Constraints (TOC) in action. The slowest step in the process determines the throughput for the entire process.

There are ways to make improvements, but almost all of the improvements have to be in the non-shooting activities. Everybody's already working on the shooting parts.

Some of the biggest time waste is getting the squad moved from last shooter done on one stage to the first shooter buzzer on the next stage. We probably spend a quarter to half of the total match time putzing around with labeling scoresheets and shooting orders and getting through the Walk Through.

Those folks that always elect a "Squad Mom" and set a match shooting order on the first stage know part of what I'm talking about.

There are ways to speed up the process, but it would be tough on some of the players.

[ysued]

Regarding "Carmoney's" comments about most of us having jobs - What are the thoughts about 18 stages in 4 days? The first day we shot 2 stages, and the fourth we shot 3. I can only pull the handle on Roger's bullet feeder so much!

I enjoyed shooting the Back to Back Nationals last year - but with two different venues at two different times, that becomes excessive.

How about 18 stages in 2 days, and have Limited and Open in the same week? Sometime earlier in the year also when there is a little more daylight? There has to be a way to have more people shoot also to increase revenue somewhat. I believe that USPSA management are the same for both matches, so costs should decrease also.

AMEN to that!!

The back to Back Format is a whole lot better!!

Les expensive for the Shooter and for USPSA!!

And with the Tulsa USSA Facility, this would be a breeze to do!!

MORE SHOOTERS=MORE REVENUE!!

I like the 3 day format though, but it can be done and have the Back to Back format, but a 2-1/2 day format would be better, then we could have both matches in a 5 day period.

This would save us (The shooters) so much money in Travel Expenses (Milleage, Air fare, Food and Hotels) that most of that money could be Re-Invested into the like Guns, Gear, & reloading Supplies!! And... USPSA will save too!!

It's a Win-Win Sutuation.

Some of the biggest time waste is getting the squad moved from last shooter done on one stage to the first shooter buzzer on the next stage. We probably spend a quarter to half of the total match time putzing around with labeling scoresheets and shooting orders and getting through the Walk Through.

Those folks that always elect a "Squad Mom" and set a match shooting order on the first stage know part of what I'm talking about.

There are ways to speed up the process, but it would be tough on some of the players.

BINGO!!!

whatever happned to getting our Score Sheets and Labels with our Registration packet??

Then, we could have out Score Sheets labeled and ready to go when we get to the stage!!

Hey, a few minutes here & there can speed up the process by a few hours in a week.

I like the idea of the one huge match too!!

Y

Edited October 20, 2006 by ysued

[XRe]

It's phenomenal what people will do for, what, 10 minutes of actual shooting?

Heck, I only shot for 3.5 minutes, total. I hope to shoot for less time next year...

I agree - tough to make things faster. The match could have been shot in two days - if you shot solid for two days, with half as many shooters. Three days, if there were no half days, and awards occured late at night, or early the next morning... Honestly, I thought this format worked quite well. I've also shot a match this size where I was shooting constantly both days - that's flat out brutal, if you haven't done it. And, you don't get to see anyone else shoot, which is interesting to some of us.

The fact is, no one match format works for everyone, so...

Then, we could have out Score Sheets labeled and ready to go when we get to the stage!!

Then we could just fill them out and hand them in... that'd save a ton of time!!!

[Flexmoney]

Any Match Director worth their salt knows to build in some time for FUBAR.

Good schedule this year. Smart.

[BritinUSA]

+1

I think the schedule worked out great. There was time off from shooting and in Tulsa that means that you could actually go an do something else. There was actually stuff to do

Half day shooting works great for me. The squad move through was pretty good. If we arrived early on a stage then we got the scoresheets labeled and had a little walk through, then the briefing then the 5 minute official walkthrough. We had a squad of 11 and we were done on each stage in about 30-40 minutes. So about 3.5 minutes per shooter... Not too bad

[Sestock]

How about one pistol nationals for all divisions, 18 stages shoot in 3 days twice during a week.

Format. Two Flights of Shooters. The first registers on Sunday and shoots M-W, the second registers on Wednesday and shoots T-S.

No Prize Table, replace it with random drawings for all shooters on the donated prizes.

One nationals for all USPSA members. This allows friends that shoot in different divisions to travel together to one venue. You could do everything over seven days and put 800+ shooters through the match. RO's would only have to take one week's vacation. Not having 2-3 nationals would cut down on costs to USPSA and maybe cut down on the match fees.

Cutting down on the match fees and expenses and replacing with a higher volume of shooters would improve the finances for the match. Use the reduction in expenses to fund cash prizes for division and class winners.

Just my .02

[carinab]

I like the 3 day format though, but it can be done and have the Back to Back format, but a 2-1/2 day format would be better, then we could have both matches in a 5 day period.

This would save us (The shooters) so much money in Travel Expenses (Milleage, Air fare, Food and Hotels) that most of that money could be Re-Invested into the like Guns, Gear, & reloading Supplies!! And... USPSA will save too!!

It's a Win-Win Sutuation.

Except you can't control the weather. A 105 degree heat index is entirely possible in Tulsa depending on when you hold a match same as it was in Barry. When they ran both back to back and compressed, everyone was just smooth wore out. All you could do at the end of the day was eat a meal and collapse until the next morning. The staff had it even worse than the shooters. That was one of the least fun nationals I've attended.

[ysued]

You do have a point.

I have seen barry in September in over 100 Degrees to the low 30's.

It sucks!!

But..

There's no controling the weather.

What would you recommend?

Only one Nationals?

That would be good too.

I don't know about you, but I loved the Tulsa Range.

Wouldn't it be great to have the ONE Big Nationals there for a week??

I like the 3 day format though, but it can be done and have the Back to Back format, but a 2-1/2 day format would be better, then we could have both matches in a 5 day period.

This would save us (The shooters) so much money in Travel Expenses (Milleage, Air fare, Food and Hotels) that most of that money could be Re-Invested into the like Guns, Gear, & reloading Supplies!! And... USPSA will save too!!

It's a Win-Win Sutuation.

Except you can't control the weather. A 105 degree heat index is entirely possible in Tulsa depending on when you hold a match same as it was in Barry. When they ran both back to back and compressed, everyone was just smooth wore out. All you could do at the end of the day was eat a meal and collapse until the next morning. The staff had it even worse than the shooters. That was one of the least fun nationals I've attended.

How about one pistol nationals for all divisions, 18 stages shoot in 3 days twice during a week.

Format. Two Flights of Shooters. The first registers on Sunday and shoots M-W, the second registers on Wednesday and shoots T-S.

No Prize Table, replace it with random drawings for all shooters on the donated prizes.

One nationals for all USPSA members. This allows friends that shoot in different divisions to travel together to one venue. You could do everything over seven days and put 800+ shooters through the match. RO's would only have to take one week's vacation. Not having 2-3 nationals would cut down on costs to USPSA and maybe cut down on the match fees.

Cutting down on the match fees and expenses and replacing with a higher volume of shooters would improve the finances for the match. Use the reduction in expenses to fund cash prizes for division and class winners.

Just my .02

I like the ONE Nationals idea, but Everybody shooting it at the same time, in the way you describe it, if you shoot and you leave there might be issues!!

I do believe that your idea of NO Prize table is a good one!!

I don't shoot for whatever is on the Prize table, I'm not that good to get something Great, Like a gun, And the Nationals in the past few years have had a somewhat of a lackluster Prize table, byt the time guys like me get to it, not even the Shock-Buffs and Break-Free samples are left, maybe a Dust Bunny or two!!

It's a great idea to have a lower price match and increase the Volume of shooters, and cash for Division Winners(like FIPT used to do) would be wonderful, that would offset the Expenses we incur in getting to a big match.

[Jim Norman]

One large Nats is OK, BUT...

You have to have everyone on the range every day.

Split to two three day shoots, Sun-Tues, 98 degrees and rain, Wed-Fri, 70 degrees and dry.

Fair?

Everyone gets to shoot everyday, even the AM/PM split has problems, but at least there is more chance of evening out the effects of weather.

Other problem is that you would have fewer top guns in each division as their sponsors would rather have them win than place.

The add says Joe Blow won, it doesn't have to say who he beat.

Jim

[Jake Di Vita]

I've shot area matches that are 12 stages over 2 days....The nationals should not be 18 stages over 4.....If we are going to shoot for 4 days, there needs to be more stages....24 at the minimum, 28 - 30 would be ideal. The summer blast and area 7 run 8 or 10 stages in a half day format....it can definetely be done at nationals.

[joer]

We shot the Topton rifle match this past summer - the next day they held an USPSA pistol match on the same cof - they spent a couple of hours just moving a couple of targets closer, and added some no-shoots - did not seem like a big deal to change formats - don't know why it would take a day to change from Limited to Open.

Let everyone shoot the same cof - add a couple of no shoots or more swingers...

[Jim Norman]

A couple of points here gentlemen.

Shooting an Area Match in one or two days and having others shoot on different days is OK. At the National this would be wrong. THink of it this way: Monday 95 degrees, Tuesday 70 and raining, Wednesday 60 and windy, Thursday 90 again. Which day would you feel lucky on and which would you say could seriously affect your performance.

The Topton Rifle match or our Shotgun Match are great matches for what they are: Club Matches, Level One. The Nationals cannot be run the same way. Each stage first off has to stand up to over 400 activations. Adding in stages is fine. Shooting more stages on more days is fine. Compressing the schedule is not a good thing.

You have to register competitors, You have to allow for posting time and possible challenges at the end of the match. We could have doublerd the size of the squads and shot all day. That way you'd be on the range all day and get to see no one else shoot. Been there and done that. Not fun.

Flipping a match in a couple hours can work, but it is tough with 5-7 stages, nearly impossible with 18-24. Each change has to be verified as not creating problems, If you have a stage that turns out to be problematic, you can either toss the stage, or have it reshot.

This year was very well run. I do miss the shoot-offs, not that I am near tobeing in them. we could add stages, but we'd have to add a day to do it.

You all need to think the math through.

Jim

[Nik Habicht]

I've shot area matches that are 12 stages over 2 days....The nationals should not be 18 stages over 4.....If we are going to shoot for 4 days, there needs to be more stages....24 at the minimum, 28 - 30 would be ideal. The summer blast and area 7 run 8 or 10 stages in a half day format....it can definetely be done at nationals.

By my calculations --- using scheduled shooting time only --- we shot 18 stages in 3 days, since the first half of Wednesday was given over to registration, and the second half of Saturday to score tabulation, awards and prize tables......

As I heard more than once this week while kicking scheduling around with others, there are considerations in play from the match staff side of things that bear on the final schedule.

We shot the Topton rifle match this past summer - the next day they held an USPSA pistol match on the same cof - they spent a couple of hours just moving a couple of targets closer, and added some no-shoots - did not seem like a big deal to change formats - don't know why it would take a day to change from Limited to Open.

Let everyone shoot the same cof - add a couple of no shoots or more swingers...

It takes a day to make the changeover because once the actual targets are moved, the stages still have to be checked, adjusted and re-checked for potential pitfalls --- ranging from shoot throughs to the ability to shoot a mover prior to activation. When you're trying to vet 18 stages or more, even with 2 RMs and experienced CROs, this will take a little while......

[FF324]

I've shot area matches that are 12 stages over 2 days....The nationals should not be 18 stages over 4.....If we are going to shoot for 4 days, there needs to be more stages....24 at the minimum, 28 - 30 would be ideal. The summer blast and area 7 run 8 or 10 stages in a half day format....it can definetely be done at nationals.

I agree, overall, the match was run very smooth with the big exception of the problems with steel. Someone made a good point that John Amidon was the On Deck Shooter each time on Stage 10 and Stage 16. Had the steel not given us the problems they did, I think we would have had plenty of time to run at least 24 stages over the same 4 days with the same squad format. This was my first nationals, and I was not upset but somewhat surprised that there were only 18 stages. Overall still a great experience for me. Can't say it enough that the facility was incredible. Thanks Tom Fee, the USSA Staff and of course the Nationals Staff as well.

Mike

[mactiger]

I don't think it would have been possible to run 24 stages in the same time frame. We were pushing it with only about 4 minutes per shooter. Had there been some other problems, rain for instance, we'd have been way behind schedule.

I can remember Nationals when you shot 2-3 stages a day over 6 days, so count your blessings.

Troy

[pskys2]

I don't think it would have been possible to run 24 stages in the same time frame. We were pushing it with only about 4 minutes per shooter. Had there been some other problems, rain for instance, we'd have been way behind schedule.

I can remember Nationals when you shot 2-3 stages a day over 6 days, so count your blessings.

Troy

Everythings about numbers.

Competitors get grumpy if a "State" match isn't over the double digits in stage numbers and triple digits in round count.

But then I seem to remember some pretty amazing (and fun) stages, that took longer to run thru, back then.

Maybe it's the number of Mags used that fuels it?

[Jim Norman]

I suppose that clubs like ours can be held partly to blame.

We run a 7 stage match every month and generally have a round count of over 160. To top it off, we often have a Rifle or Shotgun side match after the main match is put away. usually two more stages.

When our shooters go to a BIG match, they ex[ect to see more than they do at home.

I suppose we could do and AM/PM schedule, or run very large squads on fewer smaller stages, but what fun is that.

18 Stages at the Nationals ran clean, and it ran generally on time. If the steel had worked better, I think we would have been slightly ahead of schedule.

24 stages adds another full day, 6 squads AM and 6 PM. The smaller squads mean you stand aopund less and spend more of your range time shooting. It also means that you get a chance to see a bit of the host city. Might not seem imoportant to some, but bring in 500 plus people and don't give them time to leave large sums of cash behind and the host city is not going to be thrilled. Give them time to see the sights and spend bucks with local businesses and the host will be pleased and maybe invite you back.

Simple business.

Personally I would like to see six more good stages, not just six more stages. I'd still come out regardless. I'd also like to see a shoot off. It could arranged to run right after the one hour posting period. It was a highlight in the past. I doubt I'll ever stand there, but I have a couple friends that have. It has to be a rush to go one on one against Todd or Robbie or...

Jim

[Flexmoney]

Personally I would like to see six more good stages, not just six more stages. I'd still come out regardless. I'd also like to see a shoot off. It could arranged to run right after the one hour posting period. It was a highlight in the past. I doubt I'll ever stand there, but I have a couple friends that have. It has to be a rush to go one on one against Todd or Robbie or...

Jim

Yeah...I agree, if you are going to add stages...make them good. I wouldn't want any more of the 35y+ short stages, I think we had enough of those (a few are fine). And, I wouldn't want any more of those goofy little 9 round...get the Prez DQ'ed style...of stages. More field courses with good movement would be nice. And, shoot-offs.

[Matt Cheely]

I'd also like to see a shoot off. It could arranged to run right after the one hour posting period. It was a highlight in the past. I doubt I'll ever stand there, but I have a couple friends that have. It has to be a rush to go one on one against Todd or Robbie or...

+1

Bring back the shootoff!!!!!

[Waltermitty]

Some folks got more shooting; they just had to work at it a little.

Jerry and Kay shot 6 stages in OKC on the 7th and 6 more stages in Tulsa at Oil Capital on the 8th. They could have gone back to H&H in OKC and shot about 4 stages indoors on the evening of the 8th.

Red Castle in Tulsa had a match the morning of the 14th, so it would have been hard to do both; but if you had been DQ’d from Nationals earlier in the week or hadn’t been selected from the stand-by list, it could have been a consolation to shoot another 6 stages until your buddy wrapped up at USSA.

Old Fort in Fort Smith had a 6 stage match on the 15th and they always put on a good match.

The match fees for 3 of the 5 other available matches in the 8 day period would have been ~$45.00.

Granted, club matches aren’t the same quality as Nationals, but the stakes aren’t as high either. If you’re pushing the envelope to see where you stand and trash a stage (or DQ) it’s no big deal, and you might learn something. If your buddy beat you at Nationals because you were being too careful, go to Old Fort for a grudge match and let it all hang out.

I would think that if you wanted to build a “shooting vacation” which included the USPSA Nationals book ended by quality club matches within 100 miles, (or MUCH less counting the two Tulsa clubs) this would be a better strategy than trying to double the size of Nationals. That way you get a great pre-match warm-up, some consolation if you DQ the big dance or aren’t selected from the standby list, and a chance to challenge the winners to a “shoot-off” match at the end.

It goes beyond the scope of Nationals planning, but including local club schedules in the scheme would not be unprecedented in the world of competitive sports. Not everyone could/would participate. But go to a NASCAR race and see how many names are racing Saturday to get ready for the race on Sunday.

I think the possibilities could be interesting.

[tightloop]

The stage did not get the Prez DQ'ed....he got himself DQ'ed.

[shred]

The stage did not get the Prez DQ'ed....he got himself DQ'ed.

Yeah.. how many hundred others made it through ok? I kinda liked that stage since it tested movement, accurate shooting and good set-ups and did it in a way that raw foot speed or microsecond splits were almost irrelevant. Not a lot of shooting options however, and I can agree with Flex that more of them aren't really needed.

[Carmoney]

Several times I've watched as Open guns have fallen to the ground during a stage (why does it always seem to be an Open gun?) and prior to each instance, you had a sense the shooter was running right at the rough edge of being out of control.

Each time I felt slightly sick--partly out of empathy for the shooter who just DQ'd, but partly because I realize that a loaded gun with a 1.5# trigger engagement just pointed at several people as it spun and cartwheeled its way to the ground.

Sometimes you have to push the speed envelope, but you should never be pushing the safety envelope.