Bear1142 Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 (edited) I hate the fact that my turn at the chrono was at 8 am, in 37 degree weather, after my chrono ammo got left outside all night in some persons trunk in near freezing weather. Result- Average of all 7 chrono rounds? 1084.6 for a 124.7 PF What I needed? 1087 for a 125 PF (115 gr. load) 2.4 fps! UGH! Yes, it was my responsibility....but I can still hate it. Erik *edited after Kurt's post to reflect a more accurate description of the weather. Edited October 17, 2006 by Bear1142 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 That blows Erik. I hate to see it......um....but......ahh freezing starts at 32F not 37F and there hasn't been a frost in OK land yet this year. It still blows, but it ain't froze! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 I don't blame you for hating it. What was your target PF for those loads? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carinab Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 What powder were you using that was sensitive to temperature? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear1142 Posted October 17, 2006 Author Share Posted October 17, 2006 There..I changed it for you Kurt to be more accurate. It was factory ammo that previously PF'd between 128-129 on two other occasions. It was supposed to be loaded with N320, but I'm not positive. Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_pinto Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 Erik, Hated to see that, but it was nice meeting you. (even though I was with Kurt, don't hate me!! ) We'll meet up again and tell some lies over a cold beer. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 What was the average of the highest three?? Did you get zero'ed?? Did you arbitrate over the ammo storage issue?? Sucks bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justinwb Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 There..I changed it for you Kurt to be more accurate. It was factory ammo that previously PF'd between 128-129 on two other occasions. It was supposed to be loaded with N320, but I'm not positive. Erik Oh I heard about that, I think I saw you. You were wearing a USSA shirt right? Anyways I hope they have nationals there again the facility was awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear1142 Posted October 18, 2006 Author Share Posted October 18, 2006 What was the average of the highest three?? Did you get zero'ed?? Did you arbitrate over the ammo storage issue?? Sucks bad That was the average of my highest three. No, you don't get zeroed. You can continue to shoot the match, but your scores are removed from the results when the overalls are posted. I got to keep all my scores sheets so it wasn't too hard to calculate HF's and figure out where I finished. I wish I could have, but there are no rules about storing competitor ammo, so there was nothing I could really arbitrate. Several squads had to chrono in the early morning cold weather, so it wasn't like I got singled out. Although I did have the chrono guy shoot three more rounds that were in my shooting bag and not stored outside and I picked up 25 fps and made the PF, so I know the cold weather was a factor. Oh I heard about that, I think I saw you. You were wearing a USSA shirt right? Yep, that was me. Nothing like screwing up right out the gate and your own place. Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chp5 Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 (edited) Erik, Erik, Erik . . . That sucks! I hope you blew away the other shooters' times - since you were shooting sub-minor ammo and all {sorry - I couldn't help it} Anyway - put LOTS of powder in those .40's for the A6 3 gun in a few weeks! You may want to go slightly more stout than your usual 166 pf - "just in case" Edited October 18, 2006 by chp5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 I wish I could have, but there are no rules about storing competitor ammo, so there was nothing I could really arbitrate. Several squads had to chrono in the early morning cold weather, so it wasn't like I got singled out. Sure there was. The first squads on Wednesday morning (like mine) got to shoot with ammo that had spent the evening snugly tucked away in our hotel rooms. How is that fair to you? Although I did have the chrono guy shoot three more rounds that were in my shooting bag and not stored outside and I picked up 25 fps and made the PF, so I know the cold weather was a factor. I've seen N320 be pretty sensitive to temperature changes (my .40 Major load varies by more than half a grain between 35 degrees and 100 degrees). Loads that run 128PF in warm weather shouldn't be trusted at colder temperatures at all I recall there being provisions in the rules re: ammo handling back in a previous rule book (Yellow book, perhaps)?? Hmmm... Sounds like its time for my "open letter" to USPSA re: chronos and their use in competition.... Sorry that happened to you, Erik... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 I had the rule book out...trying to find some holes. Trouble is, the chrono guys seemed to follow the rule book just fine. Erik took it like the stand up guy that he is. He is a good representative for USSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 I had the rule book out...trying to find some holes. Trouble is, the chrono guys seemed to follow the rule book just fine. No doubt... I think Greg and Ken are very professional and knowledgable with regards to running a chrono Arbitration is supposed to allow for situations where the rules don't necessarily treat the shooter fairly, however. I'm not trying to suggest that Erik did anything wrong, and I know he did the stand up thing. If anyone else gets caught by this particular wrinkle, though, it'd be nice to know they might have some recourse. Rules regarding the chrono have always been a bit incomplete, in my mind. There's a nice procedure for how to actually conduct the session, but there's nothing that details how to insure that the chrono is as fair as possible for all shooters (for instance, ammo handling, chrono must be in a coffin, must use two chronos, pulled bullets must be weighed in an area shielded from wind, etc). You check the chrono each day w/ same gun and ammo, and insure its not more than 5% off (which is huge, in terms of people's scores, BTW), and that's it. The chrono is worth at least 10% of the match - you'd think we'd treat it a bit more seriously in the rules... Thus my suggestion of writing a letter above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Meek Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 (edited) Erik, A question or two..... Did the USPSA Nationals use the CED chronos? Did the Chrono crew use the built in calculator on the chrono itself or use a seperate calculator? If you can, post your individual chrono readings. Thanks Alan Edited October 18, 2006 by Alan Meek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 Arbitration is supposed to allow for situations where the rules don't necessarily treat the shooter fairly Wellllll.... to be maybe more accurate, arbitration is supposed to allow for situations where a bad call was made, and the shooter is able to demonstrate that the call results in a competitive inequity. *IF* Erik could show that his chrono score was a direct result of the match staff doing something "bad" (eg, improperly storing ammo), ... maybe. The hard thing would be finding where in the rulebook it says how ammo is to be stored, and where it says the temperature variations that are allowable, and where it says that a competitor has a right to ensure that his ammo is at a certain temperature before it is tested, and.... a bunch of other stuff. I feel for Erik. Hell, *I* might have arbed it. I just don't think there are a lot of places in the rulebook he could point to, that would help him win an arb. Additionally, the temperature thing would probably be really hard because 1) you'd have to be able to prove that the ammo makes major under "actual" temperature conditions, 2) you'd have to be able to prove that the *cold* is the reason the ammo didn't make PF, and 3) you'd have to be able to prove that those cold temperatures never occurred during the course of the competition. At least, that's what I would need to hear, if I were on an arb committee and being asked to overturn a chrono result. $.02 B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 I think I'd have been too big a wuss to show up with 128 - 129 PF loads. I know I showed up at the SC Sectional last year with 169 PF ammo and the chrono guy did everything but pray to the gods of shooting to get me to average 165.0. Now my ammo is running 172. It WAS nice and soft though....Too bad I still sucked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 Additionally, the temperature thing would probably be really hard because 1) you'd have to be able to prove that the ammo makes major under "actual" temperature conditions, 2) you'd have to be able to prove that the *cold* is the reason the ammo didn't make PF, and 3) you'd have to be able to prove that those cold temperatures never occurred during the course of the competition. At least, that's what I would need to hear, if I were on an arb committee and being asked to overturn a chrono result. Bruce - read back through Erik's posts - you'll see that Greg was kind enough to chrono the ammo on his belt, as well, and it made PF. BTW - this wasn't major/minor - this was minor/go-home decision, so it cost Erik his match score entirely... Heck yes, I'd arbitrate it, even if it got me no where You're correct, there's not much support for anything in the rules, these days, at least as far as chrono goes... I'm in line w/ JFD, though... after going minor at an A6 match several years back, I shoot to more than make PF... I shot 174PF at this Nationals... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 Bruce - read back through Erik's posts - you'll see that Greg was kind enough to chrono the ammo on his belt, as well, and it made PF. BTW - this wasn't major/minor - this was minor/go-home decision, so it cost Erik his match score entirely... I know. The problem (?) is that the first test is the definitive one. From a rules perspective, a second test of ammo on the belt is no different than if I said "hey, I have other ammo in my car, can I go get some? If it makes major, am I good to go?" My guess is that Greg did it out of courtesy, but from a rules perspective that second test had no "standing". It sucks. And I feel for Erik. My only point was that I don't think an arb was winnable. Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 The last big match that I shot had us chrono at the END of the day. Everything was thawed out by then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moneypenny Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 Chronno ran low for pretty much everyone from what i heard/saw mine was 2-3 PF low from what i had calculated. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted October 18, 2006 Share Posted October 18, 2006 Mine was up... Of course, 7625 tends to do that... I think it was just cooler than most anticipated. We certainly didn't have weather anywhere near that cool in the Austin area to double check against (my loads went 171 PF here, in 90-ish degree weather). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carinab Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 I shoot mostly Hodgdon powders and my chrono is an Oehler. I am always without fail 20-30 feet per second faster than chrono man's CED's. I add an extra 30 fps just to make sure. My 180 grainers were doing about 790 fps over my Oehler and sure enough they cam in around 760 fps in Tulsa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 I hate the fact that my turn at the chrono was at 8 am, in 37 degree weather, after my chrono ammo got left outside all night in some persons trunk in near freezing weather.Result- Average of all 7 chrono rounds? 1084.6 for a 124.7 PF What I needed? 1087 for a 125 PF (115 gr. load) 2.4 fps! UGH! The really annoying thing is those rounds came out of the muzzle of the gun above Minor PF. A 124gr 9mm at 1100 fps loses about 1 fps per 1.1 ft of travel. 115's act similarly. 3 feet closer to the box and you're golden. Remember how everybody a while back said it would never matter? Maybe we really do need to fix the chrono rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear1142 Posted October 19, 2006 Author Share Posted October 19, 2006 Alan, I'm pretty sure they used the CED chrono to calculate the HF, but I'm not positive. I was kinda in a daze at that point, if you know what I mean. From what I remember, the averages seemed pretty accurate. I just don't think there are a lot of places in the rulebook he could point to, that would help him win an arb. That was one of the primary reasons I choose not to do an Arb. Flex was kind enough to help me take a quick look through the rulebook, but Greg has been doing to chrono for years and is thoroughly familiar with the rules and procedures. Once again, the big issue was there are no guidelines for how the ammo is stored if it is to be kept overnight. All it would take is a simple rule that states, " Comp. ammo must be stored at room temp. if kept overnight." If it's the middle of summer and the low for the night is 70 degrees, then keeping it in the trunk of a car is fine. If it's going to be near freezing, then bring it in for the night. It won't solve all the chrono issues, but at least it would show the officials are making an attempt to keep it fair. The real difficulty was the wide temp. swings this time of year. It was 35 degrees at 8am, but it got up to 70 by the early afternoon. Timing went against me and I had to chrono at 8am. If I chronoed at 1pm, things probably would have been different. My guess is that Greg did it out of courtesy, but from a rules perspective that second test had no "standing". Quite correct. Greg did extend me the courtesy of trying three more out of my bag. But he did advise me that those three rounds don't count for anything official and to make it more official, I signed the chrono sheet before I asked him to shoot the rounds so there wouldn't be any misunderstanding about what I was asking for. Greg even extended the courtesy of re-checking my pulled round to make sure the initial weight was accurate. Greg was very professional and did everything he was required to and more. Instead of arbitrating the chrono, I wanted to re-chrono. It's within the RM's discretion to require competitor's to re-chrono for a variety of reasons. There was obviously an issue with my particular situation and I felt like the RM could authorize a re-chrono, but like Bruce stated, the first test is the definitive one. Even if I did re-chrono, I can't go up. Basically, any competitor required to re-chrono can only stay at the level he's at or go down, he can't be elevated. The example that was relayed to me was, say I declare minor at a match and chrono at minor. For some reason I have to re-chrono and when I do I actually make major. I don't get to move up, because the first chrono is the definitive one, and even though I made major, my first chrono was minor and the re-chrono confirmed I did in fact make the PF I declared. I think I'd have been too big a wuss to show up with 128 - 129 PF loads. Yeah, I agree with you, but this was factory ammo and I didn't think I would lose 40 fps, but I did, and I'll learn from it. Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 erik, can we start ripping on you, now? lynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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