Beginners AR Tips

[Nik Habicht]

Kelly, Patrick, anyone,

About five weeks ago I bought a Bushmaster AR-15 clone, with 20" heavy barrel and A3 iron sights.  Since I'm still without an outdoor range, I fired it for the first time at a rifle side match with less than spectacular results.  Using the larger of the two rear sights I had no trouble making hits on close paper, including headshots and small pepper poppers out to about 25 yards.  Things got difficult though when engaging the roughly 8"x8" steel plates and the 1/4 size IPSC shaped steel targets that were scattered between 60 and 75 yards.  (I didn't hit any of them even though I lobbed 60 rounds downrange on a 30 round course of fire.)  Since then I've checked to make sure that the sights were zeroed (and while the groups are high and left for me, all five rounds are impacting within an inch and a half at 25 yards, so I'm loath to move the sights until I've shot the gun a lot more because I think it's more likely to be me than the sights) and I've shot another side match where I managed to persevere and knock down all the far steel.  (65 rounds for a 40 round course and a time of 2:35 when the best shooters were finishing in less than a minute, 2 B's , 22 a's, all steel down)  I spent quite a bit of time in the month between the matches just mounting the (empty) gun and looking through the two different apertures at the front sight.  I practiced focusing first on doorknobs across the room, then on lightswitches, nailheads etc.  Kelly, you once answered a similar post about shooting a shotgun side match with some random thoughts that made a huge difference in my ability to shoot and reload the shotgun.  Any random thoughts here?

Thanks,

[Chriss Grube]

Nik,

Bring it Sat. and we'll get it squared away.

[Flexmoney]

Now that is good service.

I am jealous that there are other members of this board that can shoot together.

[bonedaddy]

Kyle, come on over!   From Ohio, turn right on I-25 at Cheyenne and go 120 miles north.   You'll know when you get here because you won't have seen anything but antelope for the last 120 miles.      Isn't it time to take that Yellowstone vacation?  

[Phil Dunlop]

Can dairy farmers get a green card???

[kellyn]

Random Thoughts on Shooting an Iron Sighted AR.  P.S. Nik, thanks for making me think of this stuff.  I am switching over to irons myself for the World Championship 3 gun in Sept and have noticed that a year of shooting w/ a scope has not helped my iron sighted rifle shooting.  Iron-sighted rifles have greater differences to scoped rifles than iron sighted pistols do to scoped pistols.

1)  Sights.  If you can, get a same plane aperture i.e. the zero does not shift between the flip-up aperture as on a stock AR15A2 sight.  On a stock A2, the zeroes can be VERY different.  Ashley Outdoor and Smith Ent. make same plane apertures.  I switch apertures depending on the course and distance to target.  I even switch apertures during the course of fire but I am one of very few who do this.  If you don't want a new aperture, zero w/ the smaller one and use it on any shots past 25 yards.  I have trouble focusing on the front sight when the aperture gets too big.  Get an Accuracy Speaks front sight which is skinnier than the stock sight.  It provides a much more precise sight picture.

2)  Zeros.  Don't zero at 25 yards.  Zero the rifle either 1 1/2 to 2 inches high at 100 yards.  Then go back and check it at 25.  And then shoot groups at 200 yards.  If you're off at 25 , you're probably way off at 100.  Don't be loath to move the sights.  If the gun is not zeroed, put a fork in you b/c you're done.  Don't forget to hold high at close targets to compensate for the difference between the sights and the muzzle.

3)  Postions.  Master the basic shooting postions especially prone and standing and how to shoot from barricades/rests.  Always shoot from a rest if you can.  Almost always shoot from the steadiest postion that you can (prone or off a rest) unless you lose too much time doing so.  When prone, use the magazine as a monopod rest.

4) Get a trigger job or good single stage trigger kit. stock triggers suck!

5)  Make sure that you have good sight alignment.  Put the post in the center of the aperture.  As for sight picture, I like to hold center on paper targets and 6 o'clock on steel.

6) Do not HOSE.  You cannot hose down small rifle targets. You must have a good sight picture and trigger squeeze for each shot!

7) Practice on harder targets than you will shoot at the match.  I shoot a lot at 200 meter silohuette chickens.

Good luck!  I'm sure I'll think of some more stuff and then post it.

[Bill H]

To repeat Kelly's #4---you MUST have a good trigger. I would rather shoot a gun with stock sights and a great trigger than the other way around.Everytime I try to shoot a stock trigger it feels like it takes all weekend to get the shot off.If you had a good sight picture at the beinning of the pull you may not by time you get to the end of that creepy 10# pull. Hang in there. And please adjust those sights.

Bill

[Chriss Grube]

Take I-80 east when you hit PR of Jersey turn around and come back about 15 miles. Then ring my phone. It's only 300 miles across PA.

[ErikW]

I think for these types of rifle matches the #1 concern is to figure out your bullet path from point blank to maximum range and know where the bullet is at all distances within that range. Once you do that, you will realize you should re-zero at a distance which provides the flattest path, which will require the least amount of adjustment during a course of fire.

Plot your trajectory with a sight height of 2.55 inches, your measured bullet weight, and chronographed velocity.

It turns out that with a 50 yard zero, you are also zeroed at 200, and only an inch or so high at 100. So you only have to compensate under 50 or past 200.

I may be the only person besides Kelly who flips the aperture in a COF, but I don't think you'll find either of us dialing elevation in a stage too often.

[benos]

Kelly,

Thanks for the informative post. I've often felt that "Iron-sighted rifles have greater differences to scoped rifles than iron sighted pistols do to scoped pistols" as well. But I wasn't sure if I was just clueless or incompetent.

be

[Bill H]

Well Brian don't hold us in suspense which is it?

Bill

[kellyn]

I can't wait to hear that answer!

I have had a few more random thougts.

- Develop a good and CONSISTENT stock weld,  that way sight alignment is easy to master.  On an AR in the prone postion, I rest my right nostril on the charging handle in a certain way.  I can't really describe the feeling but I can always tell if I am not holding the rifle consistently.  Once you get a good stock weld, alignment falls naturally into place.  

- When shooting offhand, hold the rifle near the far end of the handguard and point w/ the weak hand index finger (this almost cams your wrist as in the world-famous reverse weaver stance!).  Don't hold the rifle near the receiver - as many seem to do. It slows your transition times when your weak arm is all scrunched up (scrunched is a legal term).

- Get a grip extender which places the AR grip farther from the trigger if you have to fold up your trigger finger to contact the trigger.

- I like the Gunsite rifle/carbine school drills as basic practice.

- Lots of matches require you to run around.   Start 25 to 50 yards from your rifle, sprint to it, and then mow down 5 chickens at 200 meters w/ 5 shots.  Sure, everyone on the range will think you're crazy but if you can do that, you'll win every long range rifle stage ever!  Forcibly exhale before you shoot.

- Don't forget to breathe.  Visual acuity rapidly declines w/ a lack of oxygen.  I shoot IPSC/SOF long range shots w/ the same cadence that I learned in rattle battle at Camp Perry.  Let your breath out and you have about 8-10 seconds of ideal visual acuity.  Blast away for that 8-10 seconds and then take a good breath.  repeat.

[Flexmoney]

Bonedaddy,

I spent some time near Vernal, UT way back when.  Took a weekend trip up to Pinedale and hiked up a mountain.  It doesn't take long to see nothing but antelope.

Have you been to Dinosaur, CO?

--------------

Chriss,

I have been trying to schedule trips that correspond with matches.  

Don't know about that far East though.  

(Edited by Flexmoney at 1:33 am on July 27, 2001)

[icer]

The last 3-Gun Nationals had a 275 yard popper stage that began with a run while shooting paper at 15 yards. I definitely changed apertures on the fly because there was plenty of time to do it while getting to the long range firing ports. Can't say I've ever had the need before or since.

Get some good quality 30 round mags while they are still widely available. Lousy mags are the number one reason why AR's go down in competition. Hit AR-15.com to find out which ones work and which ones will leave you whining.

I use a 50 yard zero also to take advantage of the flat trajectory at typical competition distances. I shoot Black Hills 68gr molycoated ammo exclusively.

[benos]

Both.

[Bill H]

This may sound stupid but one important thing is know (not in the biblical sense) your AR. I don't mean all the super technical stuff but the basics. The last 3 gun match I was at people were there that didn't know which button to push to drop the mag or how to lock the bolt back.They owned these guns and had no idea how to use them.Amazing!

Bill

[Orr]

Kellyn,

Can you please post those "Gunsite rifle/carbine basic drills"?

Also what standards to aim for (pun intended).  For example:

15 yards, COM, sling to offhand, 2 seconds.  Thanks.

Orr

[kellyn]

Rifle "snaps" at 25 yards at the head and at 50 yards at the body.  From the ready (low or high) fire 1 shot at the target in 1 1/2 seconds.  I liven this up by shooting at 3 to 100 yards.  I also practice shooting pairs and multiple targets.

Rifle Ten:  IPSC target is placed 300 meters from shooter.  There are five firing lines: 300, 275, 250, 225 and 200.  At the go the shooter fires 2 shots at the 300 meter line freestyle (read prone!) and then shoots 2 shots from the next line and so on.  All freestyle.

Rifle Bounce:  3 pepper poppers; 1 at 100, 1 at 200, 1 at 300.  3 shooting boxes next to each other.  No more than 6 rounds.  At signal shooter engages 1 popper from each box freestyle.  It usually works out to shoot the 100 yards popper offhand, the 200 popper sitting, knelling or squatting and the 300 from prone.

Good basic drills!

[Les Snyder]

a comment on 30 round magazines... my source at SOCOM says that the first choice are the "OKay" brand with the green follower, then any contract mag with the green follower... regards

[lcarr]

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Quote: from kellyn on 8:34 pm on July 26, 2001

- When shooting offhand, hold the rifle near the far end of the handguard and point w/ the weak hand index finger (this almost cams your wrist as in the world-famous reverse weaver stance!).  Don't hold the rifle near the receiver - as many seem to do. It slows your transition times when your weak arm is all scrunched up (scrunched is a legal term).

---

Is there a technical reason to point the index finger?  I've been trying to take your advice, but find it a little more comfortable to hold my off-hand basically the way I would hold it when shooting a pistol the way Brian shows in his book.  Is the reason for pointing the index finger just to ensure that the offhand is higher on the foreend?

Lincoln

[Orr]

Kellyn, Thanks for posting the rifle drills -- Orr

[kellyn]

Lincoln,

I just like to point  w/ my weak index finger.  It feels more natural to me and I think I have better transitions between targets.  I know I shoot skeet better when I point and I just use the same technique when shooting a rifle from the standing postion.  It really is a personal preference issue though.  if you don't like it, don't do it.

[Kevin Kline]

Kelly,

You said you recommend an Accuracy Speaks front sight? What is the width of it. I know Bushmaster makes .051 front sight that has sharp edges all the way around. It is supposed to screw right in and replace the factory sight.

Another question, do you recommend shooting with your strong elbow up or down? I know a lot guys who learned to shoot rifle either in the military or a long time ago were taught to shoot with the elbow up or pointing out to your side. However, I was told at an Instructor school that the newer method of shooting rifle or shotgun is to do so with the strong elbow down. I am a LEO Firearms Instructor for my PD and on our Emergency Response Team. What do you think?

Kevin/IPSC Supercop

[kellyn]

My AS front post is .055.  It sounds like the bushmaster one is just fine.

When shooting offhand/standing, I do raise my strong elbow up.  The elbow is nearly parallel to the ground but not quite.  I do this mostly to create a strong and deep pocket in the shoulder to support the buttplate.  The pocket is much more pronounced when the elbow is raised.  I think this helps the shooter absorb recoil and allows for faster splits.  On the other hand, it makes the shooter wider as my elbows are sticking out.  This may (or may not) be of concern in a tactical situation as opposed to a match.

My weak elbow is likewise nearly parallel to the ground.

A comment on icer's 50 yard zero.  That is a good way to zero the rifle but check it at distance.  Don't assume that dead on at 50 is dead on at 225.  Always check.

(Edited by kellyn at 9:42 pm on Aug. 22, 2001)

[DblTap]

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Quote: from Kevin on 9:34 pm on Aug. 9, 2001

Kelly,

You said you recommend an Accuracy Speaks front sight? What is the width of it. I know Bushmaster makes .051 front sight that has sharp edges all the way around. It is supposed to screw right in and replace the factory sight.

---

FWIW, I only use a skinny front sight (Bushmaster.062&quot on the AR carbine. With a 20" barrel I run the stock .072" A2 post. The sight is so much closer to your eye on the carbine that a .072" A2 post covers to much of the target at 150-200 yds, thus the smaller post. IMO, if you go to small on either gun you will lose speed at closer distances. Just personal preference, we shoot alot of funhouse stages and rarely shoot beyond 200 yrds.