Tim James Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 Brief comments from someone new to the sport: Do the large matches usually have random free raffles outside of the prize table? I've never been to one. I've pretty much lost my Type A personality, so I will let the competitors worry about how to distribute their prizes. However, as a new shooter, it seems like it would be fun to win something at random. (Maybe a box of ammo??) I don't need a reward or a recognition to feel good about myself, I just think it would endear me more to the support. It's like shaking the hand of your state governor. I'd think, "hey, that's neat!" as I happily signed up for my next match. I'm not trying to demand that the prize gods recognize the unwashed mashes because we are the future of the sport or anything; I just think free raffles sound fun. Maybe after thousands of hours of practice I will be more jaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 I like to take care of my squad mates. I always make sure they get a string of pasters (or a box), paint, experience resetting props...anything to help them feel more involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 I was giving the yellow copies of scoresheets as a prize...wanted everyone to leave with something.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistral404 Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 Shred, By definition, not everyone could shoot at 95% only the top 5% could qualify, no more no less. Not everyone can make improve beyond their current capabilities. A bad analogy would be, if you practice basketball enough you could out play Michael Jordan. Do you think that is going to happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 Shred,By definition, not everyone could shoot at 95% only the top 5% could qualify, no more no less. Not everyone can make improve beyond their current capabilities. You're mixing analogies. By definition, anybody and everybody can be a GM if they just shoot six classifiers well enough relative to the high hit factors. There is nothing in the classification system restricting GM to 5% of the membership, or the top 5% of shooters or 5% of anything. In fact, none of the divisions currently have the "right" percentage of shooters in them. Were "no more, no less" true, that couldn't be the case. Class Open Limited Ltd 10 Prod Revolver GM 2.43% 1.47% 0.38% 0.73% 0.44% M 9.77% 5.60% 3.03% 3.14% 2.96% A 14.51% 10.01% 8.55% 8.67% 8.00% B 31.34% 27.25% 20.31% 20.16% 19.61% C 32.36% 39.32% 44.73% 43.46% 47.97% D 9.60% 16.36% 23.01% 23.84% 21.03% Say Max sets all the HHFs. If 20 people can get within 5% of Max, we have 20 GMs. If 200 can shoot within 5% of Max's score, we have 200 GMs. If 20,000 can shoot within 5% of Max's score, we have 20,000 GMs. Realistically we'll never have everybody be a GM, but that's not by definition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kory Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 Very few prizes will offset the cost of participating in a match. Obviously we all shoot matches for reasons other than the prizes. Sponsors donate cool stuff to the match and we shootes ought to be thankfull, instead I hear more complaining about how distribution is not "fair". We should be thankfull we have some sweet freebies to hand out, but these freebies leave a sour taste in some shooters mouths when they get nothing (under whatever system is being used at the match) and they think there is a better method of distribution which would have resulted in them getting a new toy. I am all for rewarding performance, but the big reward is not something you'll get of a prize table. I could almost support a system where all the prizes go into a voluntary opt in/out program. Want to shoot the match with no possibility of wining a prize reguardless of finish? Your match fee is reduced. Maybe because I don't care about prizes, but the darned match fees on the other hand.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RacerX1166 Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 (edited) I've got to throw my vote in for giving the prizes based on order of finish. One might consider throwing some of the prize booty to the match workers, leaving some with the club to hand out (prevent burnout), etc. as well. Existence of classes is quite silly to me, coming from a similar sport in the auto racing community. Us amateur autocrossers used to race side by side with the 'GMs' of the sport (some were pros) with no classes to play with. We'd get used to them running off and hiding several seconds ahead of us and we'd fight it out amongst the rest of us. They were better than us (worked at it) and we accepted that. We did it for the fun and, yes, once in a while, we got thrown a bone (a pair of tires, etc.). I know darned well that I'll never be a GM in this sport. Don't have the time or drive to get there. I enjoy shooting but would never wish to do it for a living. That being said, will I take advantage of the class system that exists? Absolutely. But I would also fully endorse getting rid of them tomorrow. Really, it comes down to what the rank and file want. It's been said that the 'average IPSC shooter should not be bowed down to'. That's a huge crock. This sport is run by and funded by the guys that like to shoot. It's the 80/20 rule. We have some fantastic talent that certainly draws shooters to matches but that's just it - they draw other shooters. The sport will not become a 'Pro' sport as long as 'guns' have a stigma to them. You just won't find a sponsor to put it on TV in a big way and the gun manufacturers don't have the deep pockets to get the job done. We need to find out what the majority of shooters want as well as determine what'll bring new shooters to our sport. I don't think potential noobs care one way or the other if there are classes but, like the rest of us, will soon learn how to use them to their advantage. BTW, those folks are not the ones who post here - more often lurking like me. Sorry for being long winded and covering two threads. Edited October 5, 2006 by RacerX1166 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 It really amazes me...that grown people have to get something to feel good about themselves and their performance... I agree. It seems to me rewarding mediocrity is a major problem in this country. I'll stop now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 I think it would be fine to just mail me my Prize... Or we could just set up a direct deposit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unleashed Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistral404 Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 Shred, I think I have been Hoisted on My Own Petard. I had not thought about that way. Thanks for the insight. Statistically, in a normal distribution you will not find everyone in the 95th percentile. What you are saying is true just that the probability of it is almost nil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reneet Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 Also the top ladys picked before class winners even though they were 61st place and 73% also 2nd place women placed 100th and 67%. They both walked away with guns. I was 2nd lady and did not get a gun. Only the top lady gets to pick out of order of finish after top 16. I got a Safariland 5182 holster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boo radley Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 It really amazes me...that grown people have to get something to feel good about themselves and their performance... I agree. It seems to me rewarding mediocrity is a major problem in this country. I'll stop now. I'm curious -- can you be more explicit? I'd like to see how the two of you relate that sentiment to this particular thread. I wonder, too, how vastly different this conversation would be if IPSC/USPSA were 5x more popular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 Ok Boo: First of all, this sport will never bve 5x more popular than it is...the trend is toward urbanization, less agriculture, more kids watching more TV, etc...so you can forget even putting that thought forward.. Second, many of the posters on this thread have stated that they like getting something from the prize table when they shoot, it validates their hard work....I am saying that it is pitiful that a grown person has to receive a gift or prize to validate their hard work..their climb toward the top of the page should be enough to validate them, IMHO....and when you look at the effort and the scores of the B,C, and D, shooters. compared to the HOA, it amounts to rewarding mediocrity...again just my opinion... Specific enough....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cautery Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 (edited) I am a C-class shooter, unlikely to ever see a card higher than "A" (best case scenario...). 1) Class System - With all its warts, the classification system is useful. It gives me a tool (one of several) to gauge my overall progress. However, I do NOT think it should be used in ANY fashion to determine how prizes (cash or merchandise) should be distributed.... EVER. Would I like to see improvements to the system? Yes, absolutely. In fact, I'd volunteer to work on a project to do just that. But I don't think it should be eliminated. 2) Awards and Prizes - I think that one should view Awards and Prizes separately. I believe that awards (plaques, trophies, medals, ribbons) can and most likely should be used to recognize shooters for overall and/or class performance. A NOMINAL award to recognize a shooter's effort/progress is a good way to encourage growth in membership and individual shooter progress. However, Prizes (cash or merchandise) should NOT be awarded in any way utilizing the class/category system. In a perfect world, I'd like to see prizes eliminated altogether. However, reality dictates that this will not (and likely should not) happen. Sponsorship is a desirous thing... It helps with match resources and helps keep the industry connected/involved with the sport. (Although, I think we should invest much more time, effort, and creativity in seeking out non-industry sponsors!) I see three possible (better) ways of distributing prizes: 1) Strictly by overall placement from top down. 2) Strictly by random drawing. 3) By some percentage breakdown (e.g 50/50, 75/25, 80/20 etc) between match perfromance and random drawing. Personally, I would prefer strict OA placement (Option "1"), but this would likely be objectionable to many/most sponsors. My secondary preference is 100% distro. via random drawing. I suspect this would be looked upon more favorably by the sponsors. HOW you execute the drawing would need to be settled though. Draw per prize would be easiest, but would probably have a much higher rate of shooters getting something they don't necessarily want. Using a random number draw (by shooter number, ticket, etc.) to determine pick order from the table would minimize this, and likely be more acceptable to the sponsors for a number of reasons. I suspect that the most "palatable" solution would be the split format with a designated percentage split... However, I would NOT want to be the guy designing this system. Options 1 and 2 would remove the a lot of the incentive to game the classification system. Some folks would still sacrifice their integrity for an award, but it's the lure of material gain that seems to cause those of weak character to rear their ugly heads. I'm guessing that some/most of those primarily motivated by "loot hunting" would stop doing so or simply fade away. Option 3 would likely have little impact in this respect. 3) Motivation to shoot - I'm tempted to launch into a sermon on why folks shoot, but I've decided to restrain myself... somewhat. However, I will say this. I'm in USPSA (et al.) because the vast majority of folks I find in close proximity to the sport are the kind of people with whom I want to associate. I shoot because it's fun; a useful skill, and a way to challenge myself to become better (at many more things than simple gun handling). I do NOT "Shoot for Loot". They day I find that this is the case, I will quit. If you are "Shooting for Loot", perhaps some self-examination is in order. Perhaps you should re-evaluate why you got involved in the this or other shooting sports. Do I think its cool to take something home from a match besides expense receipts and yellow score sheets? You bet... But if I don't (and this is frequently the case), it wouldn't affect the number of matches I work/shoot. I shoot as many as I can "get away" with... Edited October 5, 2006 by cautery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kory Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 I would be happy if all the prizes went into a voluntary 50/50 raffle. First ticket drawn gets first pick and so on until all the prizes are gone. The money collected from the raffle: half goes for cash payouts for top three in each division, the other half is used for the next year's match to improve it and cover costs. Now the donated prizes are benefitting the match, they are funding a payout for the top performers to (very) slightly offset some costs, and every C-class shooter has a chance to win some new toys. Top finishers probubly sell their prize most of the time anyway, I did the one and only time I got first pick on a prize table. I picked the most valueable/resellable prize and immediately flipped it for a couple hundred bucks. My problem with just awarding due to overall placement is that really favors open shooters over all other divisions. This may not be an issue with the nationals due to truly separate divisions and prize tables, but moreso with some matches such as the Steel Challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timamal Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 When I got into this sport. I was told that you will shoot against people in your class. Thats only at local matches not big ones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boo radley Posted October 6, 2006 Share Posted October 6, 2006 Ok Boo:First of all, this sport will never bve 5x more popular than it is... Second, many of the posters on this thread have stated that they like getting something from the prize table when they shoot, it validates their hard work.... ....and when you look at the effort and the scores of the B,C, and D, shooters. compared to the HOA, it amounts to rewarding mediocrity. Specific enough....? Yes. I don't entirely disagree with you. But -- USPSA is a very small sport, almost a fringe recreation, and that's both its charm and its problem. So even shooters at the highest possible level are shooting alongside the rank and file, in the same events, on the same scoresheet. If the sport were larger, this wouldn't happen; you don't get to self-squad your Sunday foursome to tee off just behind Tiger at the Masters. With that said, I can't imagine you and Ron being little enough to scorn -- or even care about -- someone's delight at a trophy because she's won "C-class" of the mixed, weekend bowling league, in Podunk, or being pleased with a coupon for a free pair of tennis shoes, because an individual singles tournament at some tiny country club, or whatever. There are millions of examples of minor, petty achievements and accomplishments that are relatively mediocre and absurdly small compared to the bar set by the best of the best, but deny them as your conscience dictatates. From my perspective, as I've said, a major tournament strikes me as many tournaments within one; a pool of C-class Limited shooters shooting against each other and so forth. Who cares if you divide up the trinkets and ribbons and shiny things, and give some to the winners of one pool, the more expensive ones to the winners of another pool, etc.? It's only because the sport is so small you have all the classes shooting together, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted October 6, 2006 Share Posted October 6, 2006 Well denial can be a wonderful thing or a dreadful thing...In this country you can be or do whtat you want to as long as no laws are broken...and lets face it...some people live in denial that they are the next great thing, no matter what the venue..for most of us..that is not our style...we prefer to live with reality...and in this sport it means that the vast unwashed masses are never going to beat out TT or TJ or TGO for the HOA position Sure it is nice to receive a small trophy or a plaque or ribbon to commemorate your class victory...I am all for that....but this thread is about National Prize Distribution...and getting something off the prize table should not substitute for the feelings you get when you know your hard work and perseverence have finally paid off...but for some it does, and I think that is rewarding mediocrity.... I am sure that noone is against someone receiving some commemoration for a job well done, regardless of the venue...I was referring to a shooter somewhere who thru hook or crook makes it to the prize table before a higher placing shooter; and then then lauds this prize to whomever will listen that he won it over X,Y,or Z shoorter who is better than him...that is delusional thinking, and rewarding people's efforts with distribution other than from HOA placement only, is IMO just wrong and it encourages this "make everyone a winner regardless of the real facts" mentality that we see so much in today's society... Let's be real...getting your feelings hurt as a kid was part of growing up for most of us...being older does not change the facts, just the circumstances are different as are our ages....Not everyone made the little league ball club, those that did not got over it and moved on...they probably excelled at something entirely different...If waiting your real turn to trek to the prize table hurts your feelings, then maybe you should take up something less competitive...all of us like to receive things, no matter how large or small...but I can feel good about myself without having to receive anything at all..other than the knowledge of a personal action well done... I do not feel prizes of anykind are needed in this sport...you shoot for the personal enjoyment and to test yourself against others...your betterment from last match or last year is the PRIZE we should be seeking not something material that someone donated....that is my entire point...Just some do not see it that way...they are entitled to believe what they want to...(even though they are wrong)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted October 6, 2006 Share Posted October 6, 2006 Tightloop, I think that I finally see what the diferences are here. A person that wins High Senior, or High D. and gets an award should be happy, he did beat out teh others in his class. If he lauds it over them (in a friendly manner of course) this is OK, BUT if the High D is out there touting his great achievement in winning D and getting the newest Chronograph Activator 2000, to the guys that finished 4th A and beat hime by 50%, then he should be reminded in a friendly way that maybe he ought to be thankful and quiet at the same time. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted October 6, 2006 Share Posted October 6, 2006 Jim Yes, those are my feelings...if you must have something for first Senior..a small trophy is great...but don't get upset because you won High Senior and all the people down to 66th A trek to the prize table before you do..after all, they all beat your time..and as I said before, doing away with prizes completely would solve the problem entirely.. I could feel better sitting in my lounger at home sipping a cool one thinking about kicking some butt than I could looking at my $7.95 trophy...or my package of shok buffs...LOL And as far as rewarding mediocrity is concerned...that is an argument similar to the decision to spank your kid or send him to "time out"...what works for one isn't right for the other....NO right answer...I know what worked for me...so I stay with that...my grandkids are good and mindful when I babysit...LOL.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis Sherman Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 Pete, I shot with you at the S&W Winter Championships a few years back. You came in as a Marksman in SSR, won in your division and went home with a new revolver. Id say you made out good that day. Dennis I usually don't post replies to topics in this forum, but I have had a bit of experience in this area and it might add some insight to the mix. Several years ago, we hosted some major tournaments in upstate NY that used the following prize structure. We did not ask sponsors to "donate" prizes, but rather we told them that we wanted six equal prizes and that we had $X00.00 to spend on them. When you offered to buy merchandise, the sponsors were much more willing to work with you to provide the best six pieces of merchandise you could get. Then, at the award ceremony, the Match Winner got a really fine prize package. 1st M,A,B,C,D and U all got the same prize (Usually a top line gun). (Back in those days there was no GM class and at first there was no Limited--just shooters). The same was true for 2nd, 3rd, 4th in class. We awarded 1 prize for each 5 shooters in each class, so if we had 15 Masters, we awarded 3 prizes. If we had 60 C Class shooters, we went to 12th place. Usually those who placed 1st-5th in class won guns/frame kits and there were no small prizes. We also gave generous prizes to top Lady, Senior, etc. Every shooter received a nice shooters bag at registration and in it were t-shirts, hats, beer mugs, drink tickets and lots of other goodies. This system was kind of unique at the time and it was a neat way to "spread the wealth" around to all the shooters while still awarding performance. It made a lot of people happy, but there were some real problems with it too.The first time I had a Master class shooter come to me as MD and say, "I came in 6th overall and shot 94% of (Todd, Jerry, Rob) and got nothing. The 3rd place D class shooter came in at 254th overall with a 47% and went home with a $400 gun. Is that fair or right?" I had no good answer for him. It wasn't fair and it wasn't right. The system also nurtured a very severe sandbagging problem. We had shooters who sandbagged the classification system to get a C or D card and then, never shot USPSA matches unless they were big prize tournaments. They would show up, shoot in D class, take 1st D, win a valuable prize, and then you would never see them again until next year. As the years went by, one of the lessons I learned was that top shooters don't get to the top by accident. The road to the top is paved with sweat, sacrifice and dedication. If I had been born to Mr. and Mrs. Woods and was given all that Tiger was given, I would not be where Tiger is today because I don't have the willingness to give what it takes to get there. Every top shooter is a self made man or woman. I came to the conclusion that a shooter who comes in 9th or 10th in his class, and ended up better than half way down the overall list deserves encouragement and nurturing and to be told that if he wants to win a nice prize, go home and practice more -- and better. I believe that Classes should be awarded no more that 3 deep and that those prizes should be substantial. I believe in rewarded performance. If you want to win by chance, go buy a Lottery Ticket. Trophy only matches should never cost more that $75 to enter unless they are charity events. I realize that I have a vested interest in it, but I also believe in awarding categories such as hi Jr., Sr., Lady, LE, etc. I always have--long before Julie came on the scene. It has been many years since I shot a National Championship Match, but based on what I hear about the prize distribution, I think the folks at USPSA do a pretty good job of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBunin Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 Speaking for myself (C Shooter), I'd be more than happy with a Plaque, Trophy, or Belt Buckle. Just SOMETHING to prove that I did, in fact, win that class, that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory_k Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 I'd just be happy with reduced match fees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azone41 Posted March 1, 2007 Share Posted March 1, 2007 Prize tables are cool,but if you win the big prize its going to be worth 500 bucks max. My last bullet order was more then that. DGSmith are you signed up for the Doubletap match? They use a bucket raffel and randon drawing prize table and it dosen't hurt the showing at this match. I don't know the exact count but there are like 25 GMs signed up for this match so what you said about the higher level shooter going to a match for a prize to sell dosen't hold alot of water. I know that Roberts prize table is not a popular subject with some but it's HIS match and he does it the way HE wants. THis match is already over 250 shooters and I would bet it will the the largest match in Area 4 this year other then the Nats in Tulsa. The big guys are like anybody else they want to come to a well run / FUN match and prize tables are not important to all the GMs because if it was so , then none of them would go to Doubletap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now