National Prize Distribution

[Flexmoney]

We have had this same discussion time and time again on the forum. Those other threads seem to follow this same path.

I'm going to call a time-out on this one...as it is starting to heat up. (I know...maybe a little early...but I want to nip this one in the bud.)

I'd like to open this one back up in a few days. But, the posts need to be more about identifying issues and offering up resolutions...not so much...heat.

(Brian's Forum never was intended as a place to argue political issues...we need to get back to discussing with less fever.)

Time-out.

[Flexmoney]

Open for business.

[Morphire]

First to say that I'm a total newb and just got my first classification (Limited C Class) and haven't attended anything other than local matches here in Area 6.

But I'm also a nationally ranked shooter in another shooting sport that doesn't allow prize tables and has no classifications so maybe I'm not a total newb. Just mostly a newb. =]

I LIKE the idea that I'm a C class shooter and I want to see myself improve to B and then A and so forth hopefully. The Classification system for USPSA has worth to me! I definitely don't want to see it go away. I consider it much more about a gauge for me to see how I'm doing overall and not about how I fare against others at a match. That match day score is always going to depend on how I shoot and how everyone else shoots anyway. It's negligible to my C class other than a score ranking for that day. If I win my class then all the better as it shows I'm improving and should be getting a new classification soon.

I also LIKE the idea of a prize table. I think it encourages shooters and I think it can increase match attendance. And who doesn't like to get a prize? So the problem isn't the class system or the prize table per say but how do you make both of them work together, if possible?

My thoughts are that you award the class winners with a trophy and a prize (gun preferably). Something to put on the mantle and something to play with. Those that place 2nd through whatever in their classes are awarded trophies only. The prize table (minus the guns given as prizes for each class winner) goes to random drawing for all participants with the class winners excluded. My thoughts are that the prize table should have no more top prizes (guns) available to be consistent. No one seems to disagree that the class winners didn't shoot their best that day and deserve some kudos for their efforts. The sticking point seems to be the 3rd place D shooter taking a trip to the table before the 10th place M. Might something like this solution work?

Kevin

[mactiger]

Just for clarification, the Nationals Prize Policy is published in the match book for each match. To the best of my knowledge, USPSA has been distributing prizes in this order for the past several years, at all Nationals. The policy is created by the USPSA BOD and President. I'd lobby them for change if you feel strongly about it. The topic of prizes versus trophy only is an old and oft-debated one, and I don't intend to get into it here. USPSA buys very few prizes, if any: almost all the prizes given out at Nationals are donated by the sponsors, who receive advertising and table space in return.

Here's the prize policy as it appears in the Open/Production match book. The Limited match book had the same language, except for an explanation of "equal" distribution based on percentage of match entrants in each division. Note that you can't go to the prize table twice. If you finished in the top 16, but were also high Senior, the place finish is the one you go by.

USPSA Nationals Prize distribution policy:

All prizes are distributed to competitors based on their place of finish with the following exceptions: The top 16 will visit the prize room first. After these people select their prize, the top woman, the top in each class, top senior and top junior will make their selection in that order. The top woman, senior, and junior will be recognized only if there are at least five competitors in those categories. After the top junior, prize selection will continue with the 17th place finisher. The top woman, senior, and junior may also be awarded a top 16 trophy; however, each competitor will visit the prize table only once regardless of the trophies or titles won. There will be separate and equal prize tables, one for each division. Prize tables will be equal based on the percentage of the total number of entries represented by each division.

[Waltermitty]

I want to win a gun or used primers based on my performance, not the luck of the draw.

Just caught this and couldn't help but laugh......used primers, huh??

I think Once-fired-primers are used for stoppage clearing drills on bottom feeders aren't they.

Back on topic; In my opinion the Classification System is useful for folks trying to monitor and improve (or maintain) their performance. Those of us that lack skill, talent, etc, can take some pride in finally creeping up a few points and changing the letter on our card.

But when it comes to actually playing The Game, I thought the way it was handled at Nationals approaches the best way to do it. Order of finish by Division comes closest to the mark. This doesn't address the concern about special prizes for a Category (e.g. Lady, old fart, super old fart), but it does come closest to the "heads up" competition ideal many find attractive about the game.

You can literally come out of nowhere, place well in your division, and take an early trip to the table because you earned it. This avoids the inverse of the original posters concern, that is, that some down class shooter (let's pick on "C" class) makes a breakthrough during Summer training, and turns in an "M" class performance at Nationals. Should that person have to wait through all the lower "GM's", "M's", "A's", and "B's" he beat to take the walk just because his classifiers haven't caught up with him?

Perhaps a piss-poor performance from a "GM" still beats the top "C" in a given match, but it would seem to be the lesser of the evils to say on match day you still get your trophy for first "C" but when it comes to the table there are no classes, just order of finish.

Having said all that I'll add the disclaimer that the classification system pretty accurately predicted my order of finish in my division against the best in the world, so it wouldn't have effected me either way. Also, I happen to be delighted with the prizes I picked up from our very generous match sponsors. I got a nice plaque and everybody that went ahead of me to the table beat me fair and square on the range.

I am more than happy with that.

[JFD]

I'd be proud of my used primers if I shot to my realistic plan.

I've finally decided that the goal of beating people and making them cry is NOT condusive to me having fun or relaxing. At the same time I've also decided exactly how much practice time I can deal with and what kind of practice it will be (this of course evolves). I have zero problem with someone who is willing to sacrifice more beating the crap out of me.

The current Nationals prize policy looks to be the best compromise they could come up with to please the members. I'd likely be pissed if I finished 17th though....

Honestly I think the sponsors should have a lot of input on how their donations are distributed, but I have no idea if this is ever the case.

Again, as long as the prize policy is known on advance I'm cool with it. My only concern with the prize policy is that I won't shoot a "random draw only"match unless it's for charity, and other options only matter in that they affect the general entry fee I expect to pay.

[cbrussell]

I have been reading with interest this discussion concerning prize distribution both at the Nationals and other matches. Bearing in mind that this forum seems to be the most widely read of its kind regarding USPSA/IPSC shooting, it appears that all matches both large and small, major and minor have a way of being posted on the "Matches" page. In the spirit of the moderator's admonition to present solutions rather than pontificate, would it not be benificial for the "Matches" page moderator to require that all match directors announcing up coming matches include whether the match is a trophy only match and if prizes are available, are they donated or purchased with a percentage of the competitors match fees and how these prizes will be distributed. This should eleviate the confusion and allow all potential customers to decide if they wish to forgo attending a match do to its prize structure.

[AikiDale]

Prize tables are dehumanizing and humiliating. If they must exist, they should do so just to show off the goodies the sponsors are going to give away. The sponsors should decide to whom their marketing efforts are directed.

Airedale's idea of giving all the goodies to the HOA is also an excellent suggestion if the sponsors choose not to be involved.

Everyone else by order of finish in their division should get a ribbon to commerate their participation.

[Lurper]

Having been on both sides of the prize table, I have a solution. Before the classification system, prizes (when we had them) were awarded by overall finish (this is after all an individual sport). It was extremely prestigious to finish in the top 16. When the classification system was introduced, a lot of the old timers grumbled. I supported it. The purpose was to recognize the achievement of the individual shooters and provide them with a baseline by which to measure their skill nationwide. It was never the intent to effect prize distribution. Unfortunately, the class system became a way to sandbag to win a better prize, or shoot it so many times that you end up in a class that is really above your ability just to impress your friends. As a match director, I have tried several approaches which were unique at the time. They included letting the sponsor specify what class shooter the prize went to, lower entry fees and seperate prize structure for B,C,D class shooters, trophies for class winners and prizes by overall finish. None was perfect.

The reason for competition should have nothing to do with winning a prize. It should be about your personal best. I would much rather place lower and know that I shot my best match than win knowing that I did not.

My solution: Suck it up and be glad you get anything. The prizes are here by the grace of our sponsors. Prizes should be awarded by overall finish IMHO. However, the match director can decide to distribute them any way he sees fit. It is poor etiquette to shoot a match and then complain about what prize you recieve.

[dgsmith]

I was happy with the prize I got. I really did start this post with other shooters in mind that I have heard complain and some that won their class and did not complain . I also do believe that the class system is right. We worked just as hard as the top shooters, we just do not have the talent to ever compete with them. I am sorry if i had offended anyone that was not my intent. I want to see this sport grow. God knows how many people I have tried to get to the match.

One poster quoted the match booklet about prize table distribution. That is nice I also read it when I got my booklet at the match. There is nothing about it in the web site, and after entry fees paid and travel to match it is a little late.( would have went anyway for the experience.)

I believe the post about match anouncments stating how or if their is a prize structure in place would help many shooters decide if they want to shoot the match or not. I may not believe in the HOA system, but it sure will not stop me from shooting a match if it is one that I want to shoot. But if it is a high cost match fee with a long travel time and expense and HOA prize distribution, I might find a closer match that distrubutes prizes to class winners. I do not shoot for prizes just like every other person who posts on this forum, But I still do not mind taking home a toy either.

I think winning your class is still a very high accomplishment and it drives me to move to the next level. It also drives me to strive to beat the class winner when I finished below him. Watching people take home prizes when they come in tenth in their division when I come in first is demoralizing. People on the forum say they deserve it because they shot better than the lower class shooter. I say maybe they should practice harder to beat the other 9 shooters in his class that were over him.

Edited September 23, 2006 by dgsmith

[Jake Di Vita]

"I say maybe they should practice harder to beat the other 9 shooters in his class that were over him."

There are two sides to that one.....

[timamal]

Dear Jake

As you are a grand master shooter you opinion would be order of finish would the best . This sport is in limbo . Add new shooters but old leave the sport.

If look at local match and even big match. What do you think the average old of the shooter is. I would say over the old of 30. Not many young shooter cameing into this sport. Most of you grand masters have a I'am better than you . Are membership pays you bills would you go to the world shoot. so as the membership gets older and the member starts to die old and bills can't

be payed by USPSA. Thats no more free trips or big prize table for you GRAND MASTERS. So be careful what you for

[JFD]

I'm thinking if you were to ask the question about the prize policy for any given match here, you'd have an answer quickly.

I don't see anything at all demoralizing about someone who beat me taking home a prize.

No offense intended, but I have a feeling you have no idea how hard (and how smart) the top shooters actually work.

To me, this is not a sport that should be concerned with making people feel good about themselves with the kind of prize distribution I see in my daughters elementary school activities. That's a personal matter, and the sport certainly gives us the opportunity to feel good about ourselves, but each individual has to make it happen for themselves. I look at it as a character test, something that's hard to find these days. Not everyone can handle that.

In my case, I strive to attain my personal goals. I want to finish in the top 10 locally and identify a weakness I can work on in practice. The weakness identification part is usually easy, but the top 10 finish isn't always attainable. At a big match I want to shoot to my ability with no stupid mistakes and hopefully finish in the upper half overall. I think this is the kind of mindset one needs to enjoy the sport. Of course I could only be speaking for myself.

[timamal]

What you don't understand this sport is dying. At the nationals last week out of all the shooters 9 were junior and 99 were seniors. Kids today play there

xbox360 or listen to there ipods. Guns in the media are bad. Schools teach

kids guns are bad. So as the membership gets older and the memberships

drops Then what do we do. Baseball recuirts out of high school.

Gives these kids big money to skip college to play pro ball. If we giving all the prizes to the grand master the kids will never came to this sport. Just a Agood

baseball costs around 300. A top of the line gun costs between 3000 and 4000 dollars. So which sport will the parents pick for there kids. The pay off is much better for the 300 dollars than the 3000 dollars gun

Edited September 23, 2006 by timamal

[Religious Shooter]

Umm... if we are taking votes or if this thread is being monitored by "the man" I say leave it alone.

The only beef I had with the distribution was the seeming lack of order and the lack of a good portable working PA system in Quincy.

The same thing happened at Albany at the 3 Gun Nationals. How about going to Radio Shack or something and buying a portable PA?

[JFD]

I don't think the sport is dying at all. Attendance at the big matches continues to grow.

The nature of the sport means it will never be wildly popular even if we used peewee t-ball prize distribution as our model.

It's not cheap and it takes a decent amount of free time to become halfway successful. The new shooters I see tend to be in their mid to late 30s, well established in their jobs, and have more free time and available cash than younger people who are just getting started with their adult lives. Many are much older than that. I can't see that changing. Matter-of-fact, if we were to assume that every senior Limited shooter at the Nats was 50 years old (the minimum age for senior), then on average they all joined USPSA at age 40. Not a single one of them joined USPSA before age 30. The lack of youngsters at the Nats doesn't appear to indicate USPSA is dying.

Targeting younger people is a good idea, and we have at least 4 divisions that can be relatively inexpensive to shoot, but rewarding mediocrity is the quickest way to kill the sport.

I honestly think that folks who need a prize to shoot USPSA don't have the mindset to handle the sport. Performance based awards/recognition are the hallmark of USPSA.

At any rate, I'm tired and may not be making any sense at all. Time to get some sleep so I can shoot a match tomorrow.

[Jake Di Vita]

Dear Jake

As you are a grand master shooter you opinion would be order of finish would the best . This sport is in limbo . Add new shooters but old leave the sport. If look at local match and even big match. What do you think the average old of the shooter is. I would say over the old of 30. Not many young shooter cameing into this sport.

I'm not sure I understand most of your post...but the main reason there aren't a lot of young shooters in the sport is simply because of money...it is not a cheap sport to get into.

Most of you grand masters have a I'am better than you .

How have I established a "I'm better than you" attitude? Because I think the people that shoot the best should win? I just can't understand the point of view that someone should get a trip to the prize table before someone that beat them. I thought this when I was a C class shooter and I think it now.

Are membership pays you bills would you go to the world shoot.

I have no idea what you are saying here. You think I am asking for USPSA to pay for me to go places? I assure you that is the furthest thing from the truth.

so as the membership gets older and the member starts to die old and bills can't be payed by USPSA. Thats no more free trips or big prize table for you GRAND MASTERS.

And I really want to know what "big prize table" you are talking about. Frankly, I don't care about the prize...I have given nearly everything I've ever won from USPSA away to someone who needs it....so I really don't appreciate you accusing me of greedily wanting to take items from the prize table.

I don't know whether to be shocked or extremely pissed off that you are accusing me of selfish greed.

So be careful what you fo

Again...absolutely no idea what you are saying here.

[ong45]

What you don't understand this sport is dying. At the nationals last week out of all the shooters 9 were junior and 99 were seniors.

The demographics of our sport haven't changed much since i started so i'm not so sure about the dying part.

I started when i was 29 and had the money to play this game. Almost all of the juniors i have seen at my local club drift away when they get their drivers license and discover girls

Edited September 23, 2006 by ong45

[timamal]

Dear Jake

Maybe you are not a member on the Gold Team. So Sorry. We need to draw

more juniors. . From now on gave all you prize to the junor program. Better yet donate so of your time to teach. Some Grand Master have fees for classes

Dear JFD

the membership of USPSA is about 15000. So getting 350 to show up is not that hard to do. There are between 20 million and 30 million gun owners in America. This sport draws around 15000. Thats really a low percent . The nra has 4 million members.

[vluc]

Maybe the issue isn't the prize table but the caliber (no pun intended) of some of the people who go. When I started this game 6 or so years ago, I always thought slots went to the most talented folks based on performance at local matches, etc.

Earn the right to go there, with the rules known up front, then bitchers and whiners don't get a chance to go.

Actually, if I had the opportunity to go, I'd take it, prize table be damned. Not why I play....

[Chuck Anderson]

Saying that Juniors aren't involved in the sport because of the numbers at Nationals is like saying that women can't drive because you saw one doing her hair on the way to work the other day. You're looking at, to use your own number a sample of 350 out of 15,000. This completely disregards that Juniors (by nature of them being juniors) are most likely newer to the sport and less likely to attend a Major or Nationals level event. It also ignores that this National took place when a lot were in school. In my section we've got a great Junior program. We've got about 14 kids involved right now and we're sending 6 to the Open/Production Nationals (that should skew the %).

As far as Prize Tables I've seen success both ways. Area 1 we did cash payouts to Division winners along with a random prize table. Some people liked it, other people didn't like it. No matter how you do the prize table someone is not going to be happy. As to the idea of posting the amount of money the match will spend on prizes, this probably isn't a workable solution. Few matches other than Area 2 will know how much money they have. For Area 1 we figured X number of shooters as our break even point. When we got a much better number of entries than that we used the overage to purchase some additional prizes. (wasn't much, less than $8,000.00 out of a 105K table.) The sponsors donate a ton of product and money each year. I'm working on the Area 1 Multi Gun match for next year now. Been on it less than a week and we've already got 6 sponsors.

If I had to pick a distribution method, the Nationals works pretty well. Rewards the top 16, and class winners and category winners, then back to order of finish. Not bad in my opinion.

As far as those folks that think they work just as hard as GM's. You probably do work harder than some. There are plenty that work harder than me. But I'll bet very, very few work as hard as Rob Leatham and Dave Sevigny and Manny Bragg, and I'm sure there are more, those are just three I know the practice habits of. They are the best because they work at it.

[Azone41]

I have shot this game for quite a few years and I don't care about the prize table. Before I got into IPSC I shot skeet. They pay cash to the winners. Lets say your entry fee is 50 bucks and they take 25 of it for the prize, it is given back to the class that the shooter is in (except for 5 going to HOA). So you have 20 C class shooters then they have 400 bucks in the prize fund and it is split 60%/30%/10% to the top three in that class sometimes the match will have added money to each class a additional 500 bucks or whatever. Now the problem with this system is that almost everybody that shoots quite a bit will move up to AAA class at some time so the top class is always the biggest. In this sport it just wont happen because not everybody can be a GM. Hell some people will never make it out of C. With this system its kind of cool because it pays the larger classes more then the small classes and the HOA gets a pretty cool amount of cash ( 500 shooters @ 5 bucks =2500). There are alot of problems with this system because skeet shooters shoot the same equipment so there are not 6 divisions. It also takes a burden off of the match directors the just have to write checks.

[mactiger]

Umm... if we are taking votes or if this thread is being monitored by "the man" I say leave it alone.

The only beef I had with the distribution was the seeming lack of order and the lack of a good portable working PA system in Quincy.

The same thing happened at Albany at the 3 Gun Nationals. How about going to Radio Shack or something and buying a portable PA?

We're working on that. The problems at Quincy and Albany were (in both cases) the promise of a PA system, then not having one. In Albany, there was one, but it didn't work. In Quincy, the convention center was supposed to supply one, but didn't have one when we needed it. (They cut us loose on a lot of things.) So, the logical thing is to buy a portable system, which I think HQ is doing this week.

Lack of order runs both ways. Put 400 people in a place and ask them to be quiet and pay attention: it will never happen. Even if you have a PA system, some of them just talk louder. I called some people's names and they were standing not 10 feet away. They didn't move, didn't acknowledge their name, nothing. Frustrating. Or, they came something like 30 minutes after I called their name and wanted to get in line.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like prize tables, but if we are going to do them, there has to be a system, and USPSA has been using that order of finish with class winners inserted for years. It seems to work. This year, some people didn't know about the order, so they asked questions, but it is published in the match book each match.

Troy

[TimBoettcher]

Through out reading this, I think back to when I joined the sport in 1989. The "prize tables" were only a card table set up to show what the top five or so were going to win. People in this sport do spend a lot of money on equipment. I think Jake makes valid points, it must be earned, its not like a 8 year old's birthday party where everyone gets the same prize. I personally like a plaque or a nice certificate, prizes dont mean that much to me, all that does matter is how I shot the match.

I have met a couple people in this sport many years ago that were in it for prizes, free stuff, the dollar that fell into the toilet, and that just is not the way this sport was constructed. People like Jake (who I have never met) like this sport because of the challenges and has a passion for this sport. He is very talented and has incredible focus on his goals as a shooter. I think we need more shooters like him.

Prizes shmizes, just go have fun and do good!

Tim

[tightloop]

timamal

As I stated earlier, this is not a sport for the timid..as Jake and others have said, this is a sport in which not everyone can be a winner...there is ONE HOA and everyone who shoots the match finishes with a percentage of what the HOA shot...If you are not motivated to work harder when you are beaten, then you will not move up in class, nor will you finish higher and improve your standing to trek to the prize table..

The National class system was set up to avoid the last place shooter from feeling badly that 349 other shooters beat him...Let's face it, not everyone can be the winner, and by design, the GM's are better than everyone, and the A's are better than the C's...however, everyone who shots this sport can make the same kind of personal decisions about how much time, energy, money etc that they want to devote to getting better...and it should be obvious to everyone that the GM's have more talent, and work harder than the rest of the shooters, thus their ranking...Haven't you heard the saying "...to the winner, goes the spoils..", well it certainly applies here...if you are the winner, you get first pick of the treasure if there is any..if you finish 349th of 350 should you get something as good as the HOA, I personally do not think so...

Again, this is not a feel good sport, and never was designed to be one...get better and get happy or stay lazy and get frustrated....

As far as getting kids involved in the sport...again, it is not for everyone...it is for the competitive person who wants to be the best and does not mind working really hard to get there.....due to the way kids are being raised today, there aren't many of those kind of kids around anymore, thus not many enter the sport...but the ones who shoot and stay with it are still here...I personally can remember when Cris Tilley was a 16 yr old Grand Master...he is still a GM but is a young man now...and a wonderful success story for the sport, just like Daniel Horner is becoming a success story for the shooting sports...I personally have shot clays with Butch Ellers son when he was 12 yrs old..he was special even then...since that time, he has shot on two Olympic Trap teams and ranked as high as 2nd in the world..so young people are shooting, maybe just not being hearlded by the media...

No one is saying lower class shooters don't work hard or pay the same entry fees as do the higher class shooters...most are realistic enough to know they will never win the US Championship and don't care...they enjoy seeing TGO or The Burner or TJ or TT or Tilley or JJ win... they are just happy to do the same things those guys do but they do not whine that they can't do it as fast or as well as the GM's do...

The prize distribution isn't perfect, but not much in life is...so the advise is the day is this: get better and move up in the line to the prize table or just enjoy the shooting...recognizing your own shortcomings and working on them is truly the answer...

Hope you understand that this advise is given in the hope of providing some incentive to make you practice harder and get better, not to criticize you or belittle you or any shooters who are not yet ranked GM...

Regards

Tightloop