Mr. Chitlin Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 We have a family that is new to our club, and is really wanting to get involved in shooting. There is the father, and 4 boys, 3 are teens (12 to 16 range), and one is 6 years old. They have been club members for 6 months or so, and have decided that they want to try IPSC shooting. They have 1 9mm XD between them, and share it and the mags for the match. This past match was the first one they have shot, and I was RO'ing their squad plus 1 other RO watching. As each one of them came to the line, I emphasized strongly the safety rules, and watched them like a hawk. They all shot safely, strictly under the RO's command. The problem with the 6 year old is that he was shooting a .380, as the 9mm has more recoil, and is bigger than he can handle. He only had 2 single stack mags, so he didn't even have enough ammo to finish most stages. His hands are so small that he holds the gun with his right hand and pulls the trigger with his left index finger. Several of these kids were out there in flip-flops. Our matches have anywhere from 15-20 shooters per match, most seasoned adults. There were a few comments about the kids, but there again, all were safe. The 6 year old just makes me nervous. After the match, I was just about a nervous wreck. I am trying to figure out some reason to ask the father not to let the 6 year old shoot for a while. I know I could boot him for the .380, but he zero'd the entire match anyway. I hate to discourage young shooters, but at the same time, is there an age that might be "too young"?? I really don't know what to do, I just really wish the father would have the common sense to tell the youngest that he might just neeed to sit out a few years. I also don't want to run off any of the "regulars" if they start feeling that the range isn't safe. Help me out here, what would you do in this situation?? Am I looking at it from the wrong perspective, we need to encourage kids instead of trying to discourage them?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougCarden Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 (edited) Safety is safety, period. The 6 year old can shag brass, help reload mags, and help paste targets. His time is better spent learning the basics with a .22 without a crowd or people helping.....I think Dad needs to pull back and be a Dad here. If he isnt going to do it then you will have to help him out. I can only imagine how much more time it takes with the boys and then the 6 yoa kid.....C'mon. I will bend over backwards to help juniors, but 6 is too young to play our game. One on one in a bay alone to keep the coolness factor is fine, but to try and include the 6 yoa in a club match......Nah.........My .02 cents..... Edited August 2, 2006 by DougC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 We have a family that is new to our club, and is really wanting to get involved in shooting. There is the father, and 4 boys, 3 are teens (12 to 16 range), and one is 6 years old. They have been club members for 6 months or so, and have decided that they want to try IPSC shooting. They have 1 9mm XD between them, and share it and the mags for the match. This past match was the first one they have shot, and I was RO'ing their squad plus 1 other RO watching. As each one of them came to the line, I emphasized strongly the safety rules, and watched them like a hawk. They all shot safely, strictly under the RO's command. The problem with the 6 year old is that he was shooting a .380, as the 9mm has more recoil, and is bigger than he can handle. He only had 2 single stack mags, so he didn't even have enough ammo to finish most stages. His hands are so small that he holds the gun with his right hand and pulls the trigger with his left index finger. Several of these kids were out there in flip-flops.Our matches have anywhere from 15-20 shooters per match, most seasoned adults. There were a few comments about the kids, but there again, all were safe. The 6 year old just makes me nervous. After the match, I was just about a nervous wreck. I am trying to figure out some reason to ask the father not to let the 6 year old shoot for a while. I know I could boot him for the .380, but he zero'd the entire match anyway. I hate to discourage young shooters, but at the same time, is there an age that might be "too young"?? I really don't know what to do, I just really wish the father would have the common sense to tell the youngest that he might just neeed to sit out a few years. I also don't want to run off any of the "regulars" if they start feeling that the range isn't safe. Help me out here, what would you do in this situation?? Am I looking at it from the wrong perspective, we need to encourage kids instead of trying to discourage them?? Talk to the dad and see what you can work out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rishii Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 one of our members brings his 8ish year old son out to our matches and he shoots an airsoft. we don't score him for the match, and tap the timer on his last shot to record the time. the pellets go thru the targets and we "score" the steel by sound. I know its not legal by uspsa rules, but it allow him to shoot the match with his dad. and I'm sure when the dad feels he's ready, he will get him the right gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ipscbob Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 Six years old is awfully young for this stuff. As RO, if you are not comfortable with him shooting the match then you have to put a stop to it. Safety comes first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 Six sounds too young. Its the maturity of the shooter that counts but that's too young IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 I aplaud the dads enthusiasm, but the child is too small....talk to the dad in private and see what you can do there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boo radley Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 Good luck. I'm betting the dad is going to be difficult. Did he bring the .380, himself? If so, he clearly wants his kid to shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 At our club the policy is simple: You've got to be able to pass the safety check. If you do, you get to play --- we don't care how old or young you are. If you can't, we won't let you play, but we will give you a list of things to work on, and encourage you to hang out and watch the matches, talk to shooters, etc. Parents are allowed to coach their kids through the courses of fire ---- but someone else ROs them...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 Good point Nik...I am guessing that the child can rack the slide by himself...if not, he cannot play...if so, and he can pass the safety check...I guess he is good to go...regardless of how long it takes... It just seems like a stage door father to me...he wants to play and figures he'll take all the boys too..he might just need a perspective adjustment and he'll be fine.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genghis Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 His hands are so small that he holds the gun with his right hand and pulls the trigger with his left index finger. Learning to shoot the wrong way will make it much harder to unlearn and relearn the right way later on. He needs a gun that fits his hand so he can learn things right from the beginning. If at all possible, he should learn the proper techniques without the time pressure and stress of a practical shooting match, BEFORE trying to do it all right under pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry White Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 I started my boys young, 6 or so. With a 22, cans and spinners and such. 6 is too young for a kid to shoot a COF. I dont know how this should be approached, but it really needs to be done.-----Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 6 is too young to be running with firearms. Airsoft.....OK. Steel Challenge with a 22 with Dad standing right there....mmmm.....maybe. IPSC? Nope. Can a 10 or 11 year old shoot IPSC safely? Yes, under close supervision. Don't ask me what the exact cutoff should be, but 6 is *substantially* under the line in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew_Mink Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 I thought the 6 yr old handled himself very well. I didn't see any unsafe actions, but I only saw him shoot 3 of the 4 stages. I was impressed actually. If it were my range I would encourage him to keep coming out along with the rest of the family. So what if he is shooting a gun that doesn't conform to the rules, he is 6, its not like he is trying to win the match. He's out there having fun with his family, and most of you guys who haven't even seen him shoot want to regulate him to the sidelines. Thats a GREAT way to grow the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 Very true Matt, and there are varying degrees of maturity for a 6 yr old...but that is a slippery slope for the MD if another less qualified youngster wants to shoot the match also.... I have watched and helped lots of kids shoot all kinds of weapons, and have yet to see a 6 yr old do any of them with much skill, without much hands on supervision, and without the bystanders wondering where and when the muzzle is going to sweep them...Not saying it will happen in this case...he might be a really young Chris Tilley in the making....just saying it would just scare me personally... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry White Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 Haveing raised 2 sons and being around them and cousins, friends and just kids on the block, coaching little league baseball and doing the scout thing. I still say 6 is just to young.------Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 KC was a Master when he was 8....it's on an individual basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 I made my statement based on my experience as a former youth coach. There certainly are always exceptions (such is the nature of the bell curve), but I have a lot of direct experience with the rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusher Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 How is the Dad's attitude and actions? He would have the greatest influance on his childrens behavior and attitude when it comes to the importance of safety. If he has a good attitude I say let the "young guns" have a go at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chitlin Posted August 2, 2006 Author Share Posted August 2, 2006 Hey, guys, Thanks for all the comments. Yes, Matt was there, and he got to see some of the action. I really didn't think he would catch this post... As I said before, EVERYONE was 100% safe, all of them. It is just unnerving having 5 inexperienced shooters on one squad, 3 being teenagers under 16, and one of 'em being 6 years old!! Someone mentioned above about him operating the gun, yes he can load and make ready, and unload without assistance. A little funny incident. A month or so ago, we had a 2 gun match (rifle and shotgun). They wanted to shoot, but didn't have either type of weapon, so I let them borrow mine. The 6 year old didn't shoot, but one of the kids was shooting my 16" Bushy with an Aimpoint on it. He had shot about half the stage, and looked at me and said "The dot isn't on". I reached up and turned it on so he could finish the stage. When I scored it, he had all A's on the targets that he didn't have the dot on. I really do appreciate the comments so far, and myself and one of the other senior RO's are going to just talk this one over a little more. We'll just see where this one plays out. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
konkapot Posted August 3, 2006 Share Posted August 3, 2006 Three other issues....the smallest first.... 1. Impact areas-if your club has high(ish) targets, a 6 year old could be shooting over your berms. 2. Liability/litigation. I'm not a lawyer, but in the event that there is an accident involving injury/death, I would not want to be on the stand answering questions about a 6 year old shooting a firearm.......especially with one hand gripping the gun and the other hand pulling the trigger. An argument could be made (lots of court recognized "experts" around) that even allowing such a thing as a 6 year old shooting a firearm was negligent. 3. Not belittling the family...or the 6 year old...or families in general...or 6 year olds in general....BUT there is an inherent "Judgement" and "Maturity" concern here. I realize that children are maturing faster in some ways nowadays, but there is a "reasonable and prudent" assessment on the part of the adults involved that would supercede that. FY42385 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mscott Posted August 3, 2006 Share Posted August 3, 2006 This almost sounds like one of those deals that you have to be there to make a call. I don't think a set age to start is a good idea since that would be interperated as "hey, Billy's 10 years old now so he can shoot" by some parents. 6 sounds a bit too young to me, but I'm not there. A lot can happen with a handgun in a split second that can't be controlled by someone standing right there (like dropping the gun when a bullet fragment comes back). It's great to have kids shooting, but they are still kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calamity Jane Posted August 3, 2006 Share Posted August 3, 2006 Great thread and most appropriate. Our oldest son started competing as a 13 year old. My son wanted to compete at the age of 10 but we didn't let him because we couldn't find a gun to fit him. We allowed him to shoot at home with us when he wanted. When he started to compete he TOOK OFF! He is even beating us on some stages now. I think there was some benefit to watching us compete those 3 years. Six is to young. I don't care who they are. I think ALL competitors should have double digits in their age before they are allowed to shoot IPSC AND be able to pass a safety check AND be able to shoot strong and weak handed. My husband is President of our club. We need to discuss how we will handle a 6 year old showing up at our range to shoot. Thanks for the heads up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boo radley Posted August 3, 2006 Share Posted August 3, 2006 Six is to young. I don't care who they are. I think ALL competitors should have double digits in their age before they are allowed to shoot IPSC AND be able to pass a safety check AND be able to shoot strong and weak handed. *That* is a great point. Clearly, for most of us, USPSA matches are a recreation, but at what point are rules and stage designs completely subverted for the indulgence of a proud parent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted August 3, 2006 Share Posted August 3, 2006 I have to agree with Matt and Nik. If the boy can pass the safety test let him shoot. You said you get 15-20 shooters per match......dad and the boys just added 25% participants. As far as slwoing things down, I've shot matches with lots of shooters that are timed with a sundial! Some are older but still enjoy shooting others are new and some are just plain bad but still come and shoot safely and have fun.....do you really want to be the guy that tells them "you're slowing down the match please stay home?" We always bitch about getting new shooters and juniors involved...talk to dad and give the kid a safety test and then decide from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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