Help Me Out With A "problem"...

[BritinUSA]

...It is just unnerving having 5 inexperienced shooters on one squad, 3 being teenagers under 16, and one of 'em being 6 years old!!

I think this is the crux of the mattter. As an RO you have to supervise not just the shooter but the rest of the squad. If some inexperienced shooter starts gun handling behind the line then it's not a good thing.

If the family could be split up across multiple squads then the pressure on the RO would lighten as a result. The downside is the family doesn't get to shoot together.

I have to say that in my opinion if the 6 year old cannot hold the gun and shoot it one-handed then he should not be shooting. I appreciate that he may have an exceptionally high maturity or that his father wants him to share in the family sport but this is an accident just waiting to happen.

If this child hurts himself or someone else the court will ask, 'Who was in charge ?'. It won't be the father/parents, it will be the RO. It would be you.

If it was me, I would not allow a child of that age to shoot IPSC. Plinking on a target range is fine, there's no movement and the child is under constant supervision, even behind the line. But moving around with a loaded gun... That's just stupid.

[BritinUSA]

...It is just unnerving having 5 inexperienced shooters on one squad, 3 being teenagers under 16, and one of 'em being 6 years old!!

I think this is the crux of the mattter. As an RO you have to supervise not just the shooter but the rest of the squad. If some inexperienced shooter starts gun handling behind the line then it's not a good thing.

If the family could be split up across multiple squads then the pressure on the RO would lighten as a result. The downside is the family doesn't get to shoot together.

I have to say that in my opinion if the 6 year old cannot hold the gun and shoot it one-handed then he should not be shooting. I appreciate that he may have an exceptionally high maturity or that his father wants him to share in the family sport but this is an accident just waiting to happen.

If this child hurts himself or someone else the court will ask, 'Who was in charge ?'. It won't be the father/parents, it will be the RO. It would be you.

If it was me, I would not allow a child of that age to shoot IPSC. Plinking on a target range is fine, there's no movement and the child is under constant supervision, even behind the line. But moving around with a loaded gun... That's just stupid.

[smokshwn]

In a few ways my statement has been made one way or another but I would just hope you make the decision based on the objective pros or cons of the decision, not on how some people "feel". I agree the thought of a 6yo shooting immediately urges me to say no, but if he can pass the safeety check, manipulate the gun and carry himself with the composure to shoot when it's his turn, I can see where the decision can go the other way.

Good luck, Craig

PS I don't think I will ever be able to shoot at CJ's club cuz according to my last classifier I still haven't learned to shoot weekhanded

[JFD]

I've been around a lot of 6 year olds and I've never met one yet with the attention span needed to shoot a COF safely EVERYTIME. An interesting bug could be enough to direct his attention away from shooting and who knows where that gun will be pointed.

I wouldn't have allowed a 6 year old to shoot when I was a MD, nor would I shoot at a club that did allow it. I'd have been blasted by the BOD just for allowing the teenagers to shoot wearing flip-flops. If I had let a 6 y/o shoot in the manner described, I'd guess the big topic at the next board meeting would be shutting down the match for good.

It will be interesting to see if they come back. If I was the Dad, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't make it because my wife would kill me for being so stupid with the 6 y/o. I'm wondering about his judgement almost as much for thinking flip-flops are appropriate footwear for a match.

Encouraging new members is nearly always a good thing, but some common sense is needed to protect the shooters you already have, as well as the club.

[Nik Habicht]

Three other issues....the smallest first....

1. Impact areas-if your club has high(ish) targets, a 6 year old could be shooting over your berms.

2. Liability/litigation. I'm not a lawyer, but in the event that there is an accident involving injury/death, I would not want to be on the stand answering questions about a 6 year old shooting a firearm.......especially with one hand gripping the gun and the other hand pulling the trigger. An argument could be made (lots of court recognized "experts" around) that even allowing such a thing as a 6 year old shooting a firearm was negligent.

3. Not belittling the family...or the 6 year old...or families in general...or 6 year olds in general....BUT there is an inherent "Judgement" and "Maturity" concern here. I realize that children are maturing faster in some ways nowadays, but there is a "reasonable and prudent" assessment on the part of the adults involved that would supercede that.

FY42385

1. Stage design should take care of this. We're a freestyle sport --- what if someone wants to shoot a whole stage prone?

2. Hence the "if the kid can pass the same safety check as the adults" standard.

3. From my observance of a local 11 year old ---- moves so slowly through stages, and spends so much time thinking, and being coached by Dad, that we have more time and ability to head off potential trouble....

[Jaxshooter]

There is quite a difference between 11 and 6. I would suggest to the father that the 6 year old watch and help paste targets and/or pick up brass if he wants to participate. Then when the match is over I would take him with his father to an easy stage or a stand and shoot and let him shoot it once or twice. If the father doesn't like this and quits shooting at your club then I don't think you have lost anything and have probably avoided a problem later.

[AlamoShooter]

Give the 6 year old the keys to your car=in front of his dad, and ask the 6b year old to move the car. The dad should say he is too young & too small to be driving a car with so many others around.

Case solved

[tightloop]

You have overlooked the obvious....suppose he takes the keys and wrecks your car??? You asked him to do it...shooting problem not solved, but you have a wrecked car...not good...

There are better ways to deal with the problem...just tell the dad NO..he cannot shoot...too young....

[mlmiller1]

If you have the r.o.s for this, why not put them in a squad by themselves or with some one else that might volunteer to help? If you continue to r.o. them, you will learn whether they are good to go or not. I personally think 6 is a little young but if you have them in a squad by themselves, it is much more controllable. You don't have to worry about the other shooters in the squad or even how long it takes to shoot them through. I would have to draw the line at flip-flops. though. Good luck, they may not be back anyway & therefore, problem solved. Besides, if Matt says the boy seemed safe, I'd say that was a pretty good recommendation. If putting them in a squad by themselves doesn't work, take the young one & shoot him through each stage by himself after the rest of the shooters are done. MLM

[mpolans]

I thought the 6 yr old handled himself very well. I didn't see any unsafe actions, but I only saw him shoot 3 of the 4 stages. I was impressed actually. If it were my range I would encourage him to keep coming out along with the rest of the family. So what if he is shooting a gun that doesn't conform to the rules, he is 6, its not like he is trying to win the match. He's out there having fun with his family, and most of you guys who haven't even seen him shoot want to regulate him to the sidelines. Thats a GREAT way to grow the sport.

I agree with Matt and Nik. As someone who started young and had to deal with some serious BS about not being able to shoot in certain ranges (and even entire countries) because of age restrictions, I think having an arbitrary age is crap. If the kid can handle the gun, follow instructions, and shoot safely, let him shoot. Just emphasize accuracy over speed and watch him carefully.

[pskys2]

Actually the thing that bothers me most is kids with guns running thur a COF in flip/flops. Sounds like the parent needs to remember that these are "Firearms" with real bullets his kids are using.

I've taken my nieces and nephews out, but they always shot one on one with me hovering. Even took the nephew to several matches. Lent him a 1911 without the FP and dummie rounds to practice handling. Yet when he broke 180 I DQ'd him and when he didn't seem to take it as serious as I thought he should I didn't invite him back. He's a good kid, but was still a kid, now he's all set to head to the USAF in 2 weeks, so the DQ and not going back didn't destroy him. Never made a big deal of either.

We need to encourage anyone interested, but there are some basic criteria anyone must meet. Ignoring them will only lead to accidents and will hurt the sport in the end.

[DJPoLo]

If the family could be split up across multiple squads then the pressure on the RO would lighten as a result. The downside is the family doesn't get to shoot together.

Based on Mr. Chitlin's original post, this doesn't look like an option:

They have 1 9mm XD between them, and share it and the mags for the match.

-Chet

[richardschennberg]

It's an USPSA match. If a boy or girl is too young to shoot a 9mm or .38 Special, that and passing the Safety Check should be the dividing line on who can enter the match. Anything else is making up rules or disregarding exisiting USPSA/IPSC rules.

There might be some justification for allowing an elderly or disabled shooter use a sub-minor caliber shooting the match not for score (age discrimination, ADA - and no competency/maturity issue), but allowing children that are too small to shoot minor is a bad idea.

[Mr. Chitlin]

As I said before, thanks for all the comments and suggestions. Our RO's are going to have an email discussion on this and decide where we need to go from here. Lots of good and thought provoking info. It's just one of those "situations" and we are going to have to deal with it one way or the other.

Thanks again.

[Jaxshooter]

You can always play the insurance company card. That they won't allow us to let him shoot. Liability. That will eliminate any hard feelings.

Edited August 4, 2006 by Jaxshooter

[Mr. Chitlin]

You can always play the insurance company card. That they won't allow us to let him shoot. Liability. That will eliminate any hard feelings.

We already thought about that, but the same insurance that covers mathces also covers regular non-match shooting time.

[Jake Di Vita]

I've shot hundreds of times in flip flops. It's really not a big deal.

[Mooney]

You can always play the insurance company card. That they won't allow us to let him shoot. Liability. That will eliminate any hard feelings.

We already thought about that, but the same insurance that covers mathces also covers regular non-match shooting time.

I think that Sedro may wish to weigh in on this, as although it is at your club, with your insurance, it falls under ALL of our responsibilities to make sure he is safe. This would also alleviate you from having to "be the bad guys".

Perhaps dad could get him a little P-22? If you're not scoring him anyway, at least he could have a gun that fits his hands (and feel nearly no recoil).

I think Sedro would have a real, viable issue with the flip-flops during a match, and the both-hands-to-make-it-go-bang style he needs to use. I would. Even if everything else is 100% safe all the time.

My $.02

[Buzzmeister]

I've shot hundreds of times in flip flops. It's really not a big deal.

You mean you've shot matches wearing flops?

[Jake Di Vita]

IDPA a lot...not so much in USPSA because I'm too competitive by nature so I want every advantage possible.

I don't view it as dangerous at all.

[AlamoShooter]

You have overlooked the obvious....suppose he takes the keys and wrecks your car??? You asked him to do it...shooting problem not solved, but you have a wrecked car...not good...

There are better ways to deal with the problem...just tell the dad NO..he cannot shoot...too young....

Well.. Duaa... I was counting on the Dad not letting the kid drive. I gess that was silly

[Two Mikes]

IDPA a lot...not so much in USPSA because I'm too competitive by nature so I want every advantage possible.

I don't view it as dangerous at all.

Didn't the little shards of lead, cooper, rocks, etc cut up your feet and toes? Sounds gross coming home with range dust between my toes. My athletes foot is flaring up just thinking about it.

Kids don't come with an owners manual. Some parents instinctively know what to do, others need alot of help and guidance. Demographics have nothing to do with parenting knowledge. I've seen gang-bangers and immigrants who were great parents and I've seen corporate executive who are complete morons with kids.

6 years old is too young physically. Their little ears are growing and easily damaged. 6 years old is too young mentally because they don't understand the linkage between their actions and the results. For example, they are focused and safe when someone is watching them because they know its a special situation, however when nobody is watching, its playtime, time to chase a rabbit or pick flowers on a berm ..... down range.

I was most likely to DQ when I was comfortable with the sport but didn't have enough experience to be unconsciencely compent. The first matches, I was safe. After a while, I got looser and looser until a very big man gave me the "talk".

[EricW]

This thread got me to thinking. This is a lot like what was all the rage in the 80's with hyperzealous wealthy daddies setting up their 10 year olds in a full IFR Mooney or Bonanza, then 3 or 4 hopping from New York to Paris via Goose Bay - Greenland - Ireland - England. This trip would be preceded and followed by great fanfare about how their child duplicated Lindbergh's crossing and therefore was as talented.

Then the ages steadily declined. I think it finally culminated with neo-natal infants flying by mind control.

The point is, yes, children are capable of manipulating "grown up" machinery. But, we don't turn them loose at such early ages because children are simply not capable of handling all the associated consequences that go with the job. Yes, six year-olds can manipulate the controls of an aircraft and follow the needle. No, we don't turn them loose with P-51's or airliners full of passengers.

Matches are airliners full of passengers.

I know why USPSA & IPSC do not explicity list an age minimum for competition. There are certainly eight year olds with the maturity and poise to compete safely. There are also a litany of young adults who will NEVER, EVER have the maturity to compete in our sport. So, listing a minimum age can backfire in that it automatically licenses anyone who meets that standard as competent. Six year olds, as a rule, just aren't ready. I've taken my young (7-8 yo) cousins shooting, and holy crap, they were a handful -even with multiple adults constantly barking at them. The attention span of children that young is simply too short for safety. The lack of action-to-consequence connection in the brain at that age has already been noted - and is well-documented.

FWIW, I don't think anyone is saying to ruin the family's fun. It just seems that we're ignoring the disaster factor in the name conflict avoidance. Let someone know in advance and they can bring an airsoft pistol. Or a repeating CO2 pellet pistol. You can get one for under $50 at any discount store and they work great. Six year olds trucking around on field courses launching 38's...? Not so great.

Getting kids involved in the sport is absolutely necessary, but I think this definitely is exceeding a lot of people's comfort zones and for good reason. I'm very glad this thread was posted because this is something I never really thought about before.

Edited August 5, 2006 by EricW

[Mr. Chitlin]

Well, this doesn't help. I went to the range this afternoon with my son, and guess who is there practicing for next weekend's match, with a new gun...

Yep, junior and dad were there, he had a new Walther 22 with extra mags and 4 mag pouches on his belt. They had a course set up and was running the kid on it. When they left, the kid said that he'd see me at the match next weekend, he had gotten a new pistol for the match. Dayum, this isn't what I was wanting to see...

When they left, my 21 year old son said that he sure didn't like being out there with that little kid shooting. He doesn't even know about this controversy being discussed here. This was the first time he had seen the kid.

Edited August 5, 2006 by Mr. Chitlin

[Jake Di Vita]

"Didn't the little shards of lead, cooper, rocks, etc cut up your feet and toes? Sounds gross coming home with range dust between my toes. My athletes foot is flaring up just thinking about it."

Not at all....when I walk I usually don't drag the top of my foot or my toes on the ground.