DogmaDog Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 Hey all, I'm working on my RO review exam. One question poses: "A competitor is walking through a CoF during the inspection period. He's loading magazines while inspecting the course. Is this allowed?" Rule 8.7.4 says he can't use any "sighting aid" other than bare hands during the walk through. My interpretation is that the magazine isn't a "sighting aid" unless the competitor is holding it up between his eyes and the target (not likely when filling it). Therefore, loading mags during the walk through is allowed. Am I right? Thanks for your help, DogmaDog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 I would say No, but I'm not an RO (nor do I play one on TV). If someone has something in their hands then they could be using it as a sighting aid. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 Well they COULD. They could also eat a candy bar and use that as a sighting aid. They could carry a bottle of water so they don't pass out, they could maybe carry a roll of tape, and they COULD aim with those too. However the rule books says nothing about COULD, but unless they are sighting whatever is in their hands can not be considered a sighting aid. Heck I could use a piece of brass, so is brassing now against the rules? I am an RO, though a fresh one, and I'd say objects become sighting aids only when you are actually using them as sighting aids, otherwise no one is going to ever tape or brass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 DD, How I would rule that if it came to me and how you need to answer it to get it right on the test might be two different things. 8.7.4 Competitors are prohibited from using any sighting aid (e.g. the whole or part of an imitation or replica firearm, any part of a real firearm including any accessories thereof etc.), except for their own hands, while conducting their inspection (“walkthrough”) of a course of fire. Violations will incur one procedural penalty per occurrence (also see Rule 10.5.1). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 Actually .. this brings up an interesting issue .. Flex quoted 8.7.4 and it says while conducting their inspection (“walkthrough”) ofa course of fire. Does that mean that I can use a mag as a sighting aid while I'm seating in my folding chair airgunning the stage from behind the line while someone else is shooting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 i think the correct answer is "yes" he can relaod his mag while inspecting the stage, as long as he in not using the mag as a sighting device. lynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 I got "warned" for having my can of sight black in my hand while walking through a stage. I'd like to hear Troy's take on this. (No I don't have sights on the lid ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampleworks Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 The one exception would be is if he's holding the magazine at eye level while loading rounds then one could argue he was using it as a sighting device. How more obvious does the question have to be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 I'll bet a search would prove that we've covered this question before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 Does that mean that I can use a mag as a sighting aid while I'm seating in my folding chair airgunning the stage from behind the line while someone else is shooting? I would love to hear the answer to this question .................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 (edited) Well my 2 cents is you can load magazines anywhere on the range with the exception of a safety area. The question states he is loading magazines, not using it as a sighting device. My ink pen would say ......, but then what do I know? Gary Edited July 5, 2006 by Gary Stevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 Well my 2 cents is you can load magazines anywhere on the range with the exception of a safety area. The question states he is loading magazines, not using it as a sighting device. My ink pen would say ......, but then what do I know?Gary In the past few years, I've gotten picky about the semantics of at least one question on the RO recertification exams I've been sent. I've invariably been scored wrong on the question by whomever grades these things ---- but when I've bounced the specific question and my answer of an RMI or two, I've invariably been told that I answered correctly, picking up on the purposeful ambiguity of the question. Yeah, right ---- that's why those answers always come back as incorrect. Me thinks that someone should copy-edit the recertification exams....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 I will freely admit that some of the test questions and rules for that matter are not worded in the clearest language. I know my degrees are not in english, so I can't be much help. One of the problems is that wording a rule that does not leave creative interpreation is difficult indeed. The other problem is reading too much into a question. I tell my students to read them in the simplest context they can. All too often though they come up with some convoluted reasoning that leads them to an incorrect answer. Remember in a volunteer organization, you get what you pay for Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 This is one of those rules that really serves no purpose...is a mag in the hand really an advantage? As long as he doesn't have his gun out what is the big deal...and we have a specific rule to deal with that problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dream Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 (edited) yes it is alowed as long as he is just loading. now all of us know that you don't load a mag at eye level.... edited to make sense Edited July 6, 2006 by Dream Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ampleworks Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 *Awaits the ruleing on fingernails and knuckle-hairs* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 (edited) In your case Ampleworks, the problem is your "magic decoder ring" Uh Oh...Chriss and I agree on something. This might require a re-think Gary Edited July 6, 2006 by Gary Stevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 My understanding is that this rule was ade becasue some A_H was doing a walk-through with a C-more (or similar) mounted on a handle and some other A_H thought he should be allowed to walk-through with an Airsoft! Think about being down range and seeing som A_H pointing, what from 20 yards away looks like, a gun at you! I htink that just maybe the rules committee went a little overboard banning holding a mag in your hand, but then again we do have some really, how should we put this, dim bulbs in the chandiler. Jim Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 Cool a new secret club... Club of the -Sighting Rings- = one side of the ring has a front sight on it , with it rolled in normaly - Untill! presto chango the ring rotates and you have your sight ring. For us dot snobs we have always used a spot on our glasses as a shight aid = thats why in the rain we do so Good I don't want my name on this one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 Come on Gary, I'm hurt deeply....I'm sure we could agree om a couple more issues....free beer...hell you are a retired Statie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 I'll be shooting and working the Summer Blast this week end, I'll come thirsty Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 My take on this is, um, complicated, since I wrote most of that particular exam. But, I will say that the rule is specific in what it prohibits. As for the validity of the rule, or whether it makes sense, or whether we needed it, well, I'm not going to argue politics here. Sometimes the simplest answer is NO, instead of No, except for... Benny Hill used to make a "Walk Through Stick" that was actually pretty cool--I have one and used it often--it was a machined aluminum cylinder, solid (no holes), with the end turned down to whatever caliber you shot, so it fit in your magazine. It had a notch rear sight, and your choice of red or green FO front sight. I had a few pointed at me--they didn't resemble a real gun, so there was no big "fear factor" involved, but maybe that was just me. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 Remember in a volunteer organization, you get what you pay for Gary I'm not bitter about it ---- I just think we can do better as an organization. I may regret this ---- but I'll volunteer to take/answer and proofread all the NROI recertification exams, if anyone would like me to. My take on this is, um, complicated, since I wrote most of that particular exam. But, I will say that the rule is specific in what it prohibits. Troy That's why I thought it was really funny, after you and I discussed the last one, with you describing my answer as correct, that it came back marked incorrect..... Seriously, if anyone wants or needs help with making the questions clearer, I'll be happy to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sargenv Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 hmm... Now I'm not so sure I got that one right.. ugh.. Vince Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeInNePa Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 Uh Oh...Chriss and I agree on something. This might require a re-think Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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