Legal reload?

[Condition 1]

I tried that in IDPA and got dinged with a 'failure to do right' or some such thing because I wasn't behind cover when I dropped the empty mag and inserted a fresh mag. I have only shot IDPA a couple times and do not understand the rules, I don't want to tell you what you can and can't do either. Just be sure to ask around and talk to the more experienced shooters before bringing out a new idea in a match, it might be costly if you don't.

Smith:

2 Procedurals would have been more correct - must reload behind cover, and NO speed reloads allowed at all. An FTDR would be more correct if you seemed to insist on continually breaking the rules

Pitt:

What you describe is a speed reload (even if the mag is empty) and is verboten in IDPA. Don't do it. You will earn a PE (3s), and maybe an FTDR (20s). Anytime you reload with the slide in battery, you must do a tac or RWR. Only exception is if you are clearing a malfunction.

The idea is that you are in a gun fight and 1) won't be counting rounds so you will shoot until slide lock, and 2) if there is a break in the action, you will reload the gun and not leave mags/ammo laying around since they might be used against you or you may need them later.

You may or may not agree, them's the rules, and that's why them's the rules.

Hmm now this is strange and I am confused, I wonder if the club I shoot at is allowing illegal mag changes. I just recently shot at my first IDPA match. I did a speed load from cover but had rounds in the dropped mag for which I received a procedural penalty. After this was explained to me I was then advised that I could speed load an empty mag even if I had a round in the chamber as long as I "racked" that live round out thus putting the first round of the fresh mag in. The next CoF I did just that and received no penalties. Is this illegal or not? Of course the next day I participated in my first USPSA match and was happily excited to find out that I didn't have to worry about specific mag changes, not that I dislike the IDPA rules, I just had to get into a different mindset.

[Flexmoney]

Condition 1,

While you will probably get a good answer here, if you ask that same question on down the forum..in the IDPA section...you will get a more complete answer, I believe. (I can move your question there for you, if you like?)

Welcome to the forum.

[Condition 1]

Yes Please....Thanks!!

[bruce282]

I believe that what you are finding are the different ways rules are applied in different areas/matches. Some folks believe if you rack the slide after doing a speed reload, you have "given back" any time advantage you gained by not doing a true RWR/TR, others are going to give you a PE anyway.

I'm not an SO, but my reading of the rule book leads me to believe if you have one in the chamber and let the empty magazine hit the ground, you should get a 3 second PE.

Bruce

[mike_pinto]

A post earlier said that the rules in IDPA were set to make it like you were in a realistic situation where you would not be counting rounds, therefore you shoot 'til slidelock. Then another post says if you reload with one in the chanber, you have to eject a live round? That's realistic!! I never understood IDPA rules. I have been in sticky situations before and never thought that a Haitian or Somalian would take my M-16 or Beretta mag and use it against me. I know these are shooting games and I am not trying to put down IDPA, but if you are going to have rules to make it realistic, get rid of the silly ones. Sort of like 10 round max in production in USPSA.

I'm just really bored at work so ignore me..

Mike

[wsimpso1]

Actually, the rules don't say that the mag can not hit the dirt, they say that you must retain a mag changed with the slide forward. One (very slow) method for doing this is to do your speed reload and then pickup and pocket the dropped mag. You retained the mag! I have seen many folks drop the mag, finish the speed relaod, recover the mag and keep going for no penalty.

The best excuses I can give for the rules are:

In a real fight, trained shooters generally do not know how many rounds are left in a mag;

In a real fight that has gone on long enough to justify a reload, you may need those rounds remaining in the mag.

Don't sweat it so much, practice reloads with retention, practice tactical reloads, practice speed reloads, and practice slide-lock reloads. Mentally rehearse using the right one in the right place. After all, the rules only pertain to how you get to the shooting. And the shooting, while it is an end unto itself, is just a tool in a bigger picture too.

Billski

[bruce282]

Actually, the rules don't say that the mag can not hit the dirt, they say that you must retain a mag changed with the slide forward. One (very slow) method for doing this is to do your speed reload and then pickup and pocket the dropped mag. You retained the mag! I have seen many folks drop the mag, finish the speed relaod, recover the mag and keep going for no penalty.

SNIP

Billski

I agree, you have fulfulled the requirenments as defined by the rules by retaining the magazine before leaving cover, and no proceduarl should be given. What happens in the case of someone who does a speed reload, fires 2 at the last target, then picks up the magazine and departs cover? PE or not?

Bruce

[Jim Watson]

Actually, the rule book says on page 41

"Failure to properly stow a partial magazine

or live ammunition after a Tactical Reload or Reload with

Retention prior to firing the first shot after the reload, will incur a

procedural penalty."

So you can speed load, pick up and pocket the magazine, and then shoot.

What happens in the case of someone who does a speed reload, fires 2 at the last target, then picks up the magazine and departs cover?

He gets a PE for shooting with ammo not stowed. Maybe a FTDR for circumventing the CoF by "inappropriate technique."

I have seen shooters to miss their pocket while attempting to stow a partial magazine and not be penalzed on a "good faith effort" call, but that is not in the rules.

[GmanCdp]

Actually, the rules don't say that the mag can not hit the dirt, they say that you must retain a mag changed with the slide forward. One (very slow) method for doing this is to do your speed reload and then pickup and pocket the dropped mag. You retained the mag! I have seen many folks drop the mag, finish the speed relaod, recover the mag and keep going for no penalty.

SNIP

Billski

I agree, you have fulfulled the requirenments as defined by the rules by retaining the magazine before leaving cover, and no proceduarl should be given. What happens in the case of someone who does a speed reload, fires 2 at the last target, then picks up the magazine and departs cover? PE or not?

Bruce

saw this happen at the nationals, 2 times...2 shooters got a pe for not retaining the mag first,...BUT i 've also seen it where at the END of a COF that where you must do a reload and a shooter drops a mag and and then shoot,and still get a pe for NOT retaining the mag.my point on that is,the shooter is not moving to another position to shoot..

[Condition 1]

Thanks I appreciate all the responses.

[enoon]

My understanding is that if you pick up, retain the mag, and go on, no penalty. Further, if it is the last shooting station and you do not leave that shooting station, there is no penalty for not picking up the magazine. I have no experience beyond the local club and would be happy to learn if this is not correct.

My oops is starting to reload while moving to cover with an empty revolver!

Oops, thanks clearing things up while I was getting coffee! I am corrected!

Edited June 29, 2006 by enoon

[Mayonaise]

The "no speed reload" rule is a gaming rule only. Has nothing to do with tactics. It's to keep the field level for competition.

I used to cut slack for people who obviously made a mistake dropping an empty in a speed reload as long as they ejected the chambered round. But there are shooters that are fast enough to gain a time advantage that I no longer do. Same for one, same for all.

[mike_pinto]

That makes it clear.. Please excuse my ignorance when it comes to IDPA, just trying to educate myself on rules of other games. I know some will approach IDPA and USPSA as "real scenario training", but I've always viewed it as a really fun and loud game!! What would be the ruling if your IDPA gun automatically closed the slide when inserting a new full magazine? Just wondering if there was a PE for not manually closing the slide on a full one.

Thanks..

Mike

[yoshidaex]

+1 on the really loud and fun game!! within the rules of course. but there are those people who live in the "gray" area of the rules. as for a slide that closes after a mag is inserted, equipment malfunction

[Gregg K]

Further, if it is the last shooting station and you do not leave that shooting station, there is no penalty for not picking up the magazine. I have no experience beyond the local club and would be happy to learn if this is not correct.

A speed load at the last firing point would be the same as dropping the mag on the ground while doing a tac load or a reload with retention. The rules state that if you fire the next shot without properly stowing the magazine, it is a procedural. It makes no difference if it was the last firing position, the gun was fired before the mag was stowed..penalty.

[kdmoore]

I believe the "if you rack the slide you don't get the PE" comes from the idea that a shooter may experience, or think he experiences a malfunction. As part of the clearance, he drops the mag and racks the slide.

For me, If I'm the SO and it doesn't look like a practiced, polished move I'll likely give the benefit of the doubt because "he didn't gain any advantage" and might have actually lost time. I guess at our state match, I'll bring this up and try to gain a consensus for consistencies sake. And we'll likely award PE's by the letter of the law, which will make this mistake a little more costly.

[Genghis]

Actually, the rules don't say that the mag can not hit the dirt, they say that you must retain a mag changed with the slide forward. One (very slow) method for doing this is to do your speed reload and then pickup and pocket the dropped mag.

Or practice really hard and do a speed reload, then catch the mag as it drops a la JJ Racaza, stow it, and move on.

[Condition 1]

Actually, the rules don't say that the mag can not hit the dirt, they say that you must retain a mag changed with the slide forward. One (very slow) method for doing this is to do your speed reload and then pickup and pocket the dropped mag.

Or practice really hard and do a speed reload, then catch the mag as it drops a la JJ Racaza, stow it, and move on.

Wow would like to see somebody do that.....man you gotta be fast as hail!!!!

[Jim Watson]

What would be the ruling if your IDPA gun automatically closed the slide when inserting a new full magazine? Just wondering if there was a PE for not manually closing the slide on a full one.

Mike

No problemo, no PE.

There are a LOT of Glocks that will fairly reliably close the slide when a magazine is firmly seated. In fact, I have seen people so used to it that if theirs doesn't, they will whack the floorplate again instead of pushing the slide stop or yanking the slide for a more conventional reload.

I have read that the S&W Plastic M&P will do it regularly.

Now if we could just get a pistol that would automatically drop the empty magazine like a Garand ejects an empty clip...

[RickB]

The "no speed reload" rule is a gaming rule only. Has nothing to do with tactics. It's to keep the field level for competition.

I used to cut slack for people who obviously made a mistake dropping an empty in a speed reload as long as they ejected the chambered round. But there are shooters that are fast enough to gain a time advantage that I no longer do. Same for one, same for all.

If a shooter does a speed load, then racks the round out of the chamber, that is the proof that they did an improper reload, and should be penalized. If they rack a round out, they need to pick up the empty mag before firing a shot, if they want to avoid a penalty.

[p99shooter]

What if the shooter says "I thought I had a malfunction, and that was a tap-rack" ? You really don't gain any time advantage by dropping the empty mag and racking the slide, as opposed to firing one more shot and performing a slide lock reload.

All this is pretty moot under the new rules. IDPA now frowns upon mandatory, on the clock reloads-with-retention. It is pretty much a shoot-to-slidelock thing for most matches. The last sanctioned match I was at had no mandatory reloads at all except for the standards stage.

Edited June 29, 2006 by p99shooter

[revchuck]

The trend I've seen is that any IDPA-legal reload is okay, leaving which one to use up to the shooter.

[Crusher]

It is pretty much a shoot-to-slidelock thing for most matches

Depends on the stage set-up, at times (if you have enough space to move behind cover,say 2 steps, as all reloads must be performed from behind cover) a retention reload can save lots of time over a static slidelock in the total runtime of a stage.

The only exeption to retaining a loaded/partially loaded mag is a malfunction (slide lock). If the mag (or the rounds in the mag) induced the malfunction it iis NOT necessary to retain the bad mag and you should not recieve a penalty.

[p99shooter]

In the situations you're talking about, the tactical reload is what I found can really save some time on a stage. As soon as the the mag is seated, take off and stow the partially spent one on the run. The opportunities for this are rare, but it can shave off some time.

[the duck of death]

*QUOTE*

IDPA now frowns upon mandatory, on the clock reloads-with-retention.

Of course they do after I wasted all that time getting proficient at doing the stupid thing.

Edited July 10, 2006 by the duck of death