If [insert Name Of Gm De Jour] Shot Action Pistol...

[BigDave]

After another low turn out at Bianchi, I'm pondering why we're not seeing more new shooters, specifically USPSA GM's attend this match? Back in the day, as I understand it, everyone who was anyone in sport shooting was slugging it out the week before memorial day in Columbia. Why not now?

Please don't misunderstand me - we had a great number of newcomers this year and I personally thank each and every one of you for showing up and putting it out there. You are to be commended.

Specifically for you USPSA shooters who haven't tried Action Pistol - if Max, Travis, Chris, JJ, KC, Angus, or Matt shot this match regularly - would you? I'm beginning to think that there is a large segment in USPSA that, when it comes to shooting, closely follows what these folks do (and don't). Does anyone else have an opinion?

Phil Strader and Mike Seeklander have now shown up multiple times and are putting up tremendous scores (and putting heat on TGO while they're at it). Julie Goloski was back with an Open gun for the first time in a number of years. James Broom put up a monster score with a USPSA Open gun (no wings or shroud) Dave Sevigny was there in 2004, but didn't return because of the Production rules (see my other thread).

This really is a fantastic shooting test that I think a lot of people are missing. Yeah, yeah, we've been down this road in one way or another, one time or another. But, this match and sport needs new blood and I'm thirsty.

Thoughts?

[XRe]

My choice to shoot a particular game/sport has nothing to do with who's shooting it. My reasons for not taking up AP are various - but, basically, I have little time to practice, limited funding, and I have a great time shooting USPSA/IPSC type matches. If I have to choose between doing that and other things (and I do), I pick USPSA/IPSC. I've been able to dabble in a bit of Steel Challenge of late, but...

You're obsessed w/ AP, Dave I appreciate your enthusiasm, but geez... you sound like you're desperate for a date or something :lol:

[Kimberkid]

You already know all the reasons why attendance is low. Anyone who has ever shot the Cup knows why. Why dont more big name USPSA shooters try it? it isnt cost effective. Why should they give up a valuable week to go shoot a 192 rd. match with no media coverage. Should they win, they MIGHT get paid. If the USPSA Nats ran in the same way the BC did, it woulda been cancelled years ago. USPSA shooters just plain wont put up with the abuse that AP shooters love subjecting themselves too. The rules are too inconsistent and ridiculous, the payouts suck, and the organization is a joke. Period.

Is it a wonderfully challenging shooting test, Hell yea!!

Have a lot of great things fallen by the way side due to the way they done, hell yea.

Does the sport need new blood, Hell yea!!! But it needs that new blood in the office just as much as it does on the range.

[BigDave]

You're obsessed w/ AP, Dave I appreciate your enthusiasm, but geez... you sound like you're desperate for a date or something :lol:

Yes and Yes. Guilty on both counts - what's your point?

Does the sport need new blood, Hell yea!!! But it needs that new blood in the office just as much as it does on the range.

You're right. The problem with AP is that it is a shooting sport run by a political action committee. Maybe back in the early days, a lot of people turned the other cheek when the winner walked off with ~$20K (mondo loot in the mid-late 80's).

We were talking after the Q&A meeting (which I was late to) about the 2004 comment that "sometimes the squeaky wheel gets replaced." Maybe the NRA is the squeaky wheel here? I'm asking if anyone has a wrench. What if the NRA wasn't running the show tomorrow? As I hear it, the Bianchi licenses the rights to the NRA for $1 a yr and the contract with GVRPC is also coming up.

What I'm talking about is the shooting challenge specifically - not necessarily who's at the helm.

[P.E. Kelley]

Dave,

I have often though of attending The Cup. I think that the lack of local matches is a big stumbling block in promoting NRA Action Shooting. Before one jumps into the "big show"a few local matches would be the norm. We seem to have a darth of Action Pistol on northwest side of the USA. If I am in error, this would further prove the lack of promotion of this disipline. I /we seem to have little problem in finding, USPSA, Steel, Clays, Hi-Power, B-Eye matches but where does a Idaho, Washington, Montana boy shoot a Bianchi Style match to get ones feet wet?

I know this does not answer your post but it is on topic. right?

PK

[mscott]

I'll give you a new shooter point of view. I would love to shoot every event there is in shooting, but can hardly afford what I'm doing now. Some guys like events like AP where everything is in a set format and you can practice for it. I personally never want to see the same stage twice. If I'm going to travel I want something different, bigger, and better than I can find at home. This is my first year shooting USPSA and can't get enough. I've shot NRA Action Pistol once and don't care if I do again. I can't really see it being all that exciting watching TGO or any other big name shoot it. They are just 2 different sports. Look at it like NASCAR and professional dirt bike racing. They are both racing, but one just happens to be more popular than the other.

[JFD]

I don't really care who else is shooting a match. I'm certainly no GM "follower".

No way do I want to shoot the same stages over and over again, so no AP for me

[AikiDale]

AP sounds like a fun match to me Dave. I don't care if the big dogs shoot it or not. I don't shoot it because there is no match convenient to me. I may make it up to Indy for one but it really needs to be on a Sunday for me since I work Friday nights. I don't mind that it is the same stages, I run a steel match which has very little variety.

So how come you true belivers don't have more matches?

[Action Pistolero]

For those of you that say A/P is boring and you only shoot the same four events all the time, I feel your pain. There are times where I get sick of the Mover, Plates, Barricade and Practical. This is all they shoot at the Cup so the Clubs mostly only shoot these events. What most people don't realize is that there are actually 13 other courses of fire. My personal favorite is the Advanced Military Pistol Course. Besides shooting at 50 yards on a D-1 and 50 yard slow fire pistol target you draw and fire one shot in 2.5 sec on a d-1 at 25 yards. Repeat this 9 more times. Go to the 10 yard line. Draw and fire one shot in 1.5 sec. Repeat 9 more times. And last but not least, at 10 yards there are 3 D-1's spaced 9 ft edge to edge. Shooter starts with the pistol holstered and faces 90 degrees from the targets. At the buzzer, turn, draw and fire two shots on each target in 4 seconds. If that doesn't get the blood flowing then your dead!

For me, A/P is pretty much all I do. It doesn't matter where a match is, if I can find a way to get there then I will. For you USPSA guys just think of it as quality practice. I guarantee if you shoot A/P and concentrate on it a little then your hit factors will increase in USPSA.

As far as the rules go, the hell with them. I put the 1 pound trigger pull back in my gun tonight and it feels great!

[BigDave]

Dale - Man, I'm working on it!!!

Here's another angle to approach this match from. Look at it as a shooting challenge - plain and simple. This side of Open, there isn't anything terribly technical about shooting this match. It isn't like USPSA in that you have to figure out how to game stages, or where to reload. All you need as an accurate and mechanically reliable firearm.

Figuring your lead on the mover is a math problem. Sight your pistol in for 50 yds (which most ranges have access to) and make sure you can put 7/10 rnds on the X ring. Next, load 1-2K pcs of practice ammo, drive to Columibia and just shoot. There is a practice match at the beginning of the week. Almost everyone practices the specific match the same day as they shoot for record.

You want to practice? Get the some NRA D1 targets and proceed as follows:

Plates (standard 6 8" plate rack)

10 yds - 6 sec x2

15 yds - 7 sec x2

20 yds - 8 sec x2

25 yds - 9 sec x2

Barricade (std 2x6 barricade with a 2x3 shooters box) two targets on either side of the barricade

10 yds - 5 secs (per side)

15 yds - 6 secs (per side)

20 yds - 7 secs (per side)

35 yds - 8 secs (per side)

Practical two D1 targets, 3 ft edge to edge (that may not be exatct, but close enough)

10 yds - 1 shot/target-3 seconds, 2 shots per target-4 seconds, 3 shots per target (weak hand unsupported)-8 seconds

15 yds - 1 shot/target 4 seconds, 5 shots per target-4 seconds, 6 shots per target-5 seconds

25 yds - 1 shot/target 5 seconds, 2 shots per target-6 seconds, 3 shots per target-7 seconds

50 yds - 1 shot/target 7 seconds, 2 shots per target-10 seconds, 3 shots per target-15 seconds

I practice the Barricade and Practical routinely without dedicated ranges. I don't have a plate rack at my range, so I just practice shooting groups under time out to 25 yds. I've also used paper plates. I don't have access to a true practice range, but you won't see me complaining. Now, I am lucky that a local club has a dedicated AP range w/ Mover, so I get to shot that during local matches (April-Sept - when I'm not on the road, of course).

That 1920, to me, is like Everest. It is there and I want to chase it - period. I don't know how else to describe it. Along they way, I realized that it does make me a better USPSA shooter.

All I want to acomplish here is get others exposed to the same experiences that I've had in the hopes that they'll look at it in a similar fashion - not as a separate, unique match - but an overall barometer for shooting skill. Rob Leatham said in the 2005 Lim Nat's video - people aren't beating him because they're not shooting better. This may be the key. Is Phil Strader on to something? I recommend coming giving this a try and see for yourself

[Action Pistolero]

Dave must have been sending his long one and it locked up and sent the same one twice.

Edited May 31, 2006 by Action Pistolero

[AikiDale]

Our host did pretty well at the cup:

1983 Brian Enos 1903-612X

1984 Brian Enos 1910-257X

Looks like they changed the game after Brian scored all those x's!

[gunny]

I think Mr. Kelly pretty well summed it up.

Lack of local matches and promotion of the sport.

For example, in our state there is only one club that puts on AP matches. Its a 200 mile drive one way.

However, Big Dave your enthusiasm is contagious and admirable. I am going to drive down there and give it a try.

Thanks for sharing all of the information about the match in your posts.

[Flexmoney]

Any club could hold AP matches. As there are about a dozen courses of fire to choose from.

[8shooter]

Another newcomer point of view.

I started shooting Action Pistol when I was practising for last years IRC in PA and Doug Keonig said shooting action would increase my results in Icore etc style matches, but I didn't shoot it because anyone in particular did, but another reason is I also noticed alot of people have religously shot it for a very long time and I figured there had to be a reason for that.

Slight thread drift if I may:

I have just now arrived home to Australia after shooting my first Bianchi Cup, which was only the 6th Action Pistol match I have ever shot. It was to say the least incredible.

Someone made the comment about a lot of expense for only 192 shots, not entirely accurate, let me tell you I haven't shot so much for one match in one week in my life..... ever. I arrived in MO on Sunday night, I don't know exactly how many rounds I shot the whole week, but Randy Hollowbush loaded 2000 practise rounds and 600 match rounds for me and he didn't get a whole lot of them back at the end of the week (maybe 500). Last years IRC as a comparison example I took 500 rounds with me, had to reshoot a long course stage and still took 100 or so rounds home.

Some other points I would like mention,

- This had to be the most orgainsed match I have ever shot at, with a designated time to shoot each stage you know how long you can spend at the practise range before your due up, and you can head straight back there after shooting to practise your next stage.

- Targets are only used once, so patch/tape cancer is at 0% level.(practise range excluded)

- Its the only match that I have been to that holds a Newcomers meeting and which is attended by the pro's (thanks Bruce and Don) who are quite happy to share their experiences and how to get the most from the match.

- I also found that at this match people don't try to game each other, on numerous occasions I watched the better shooters sharing pointers of how to shoot a stage better.... hell Bruce even took 20 minutes of his time to help me sight in my brand new gun without a hesitation.

One comment I did mention to Rudy when he asked for my comments, was despite the large volume of shooting done during the week, when you come from shooting 12 - 20 stages matches, the actual match itself did seem to go rather quickly, and the side matches weren't much of an attraction, I only shot one of them. I suggested having a second side match using 2 - 4 of the other Action pistol stages not individual stages, but this would not replace the main match.

I had a blast (no pun intended) and will be back next year for certain, I have been lucky as the timing for me is great as Australia is hosting the World Titles in Sydney in Novemeber, so Bianchi was an introduction to a high pressure match prior to it.

Oh and also, congrats to Bruce, I bet the wait made victory even sweeter.

Ryan.

[EricW]

Dave,

For me, it has nothing to do with hero worship, but is primarily due to the fact that AP simply *does not exist* here. And trying to figure out how to start a club from the NRA's website is like squaring the circle. Even if I figure that out...then...there's the extra equipment like the $1500 mover. My local club doesn't have the funds to buy it. If I buy it, I essentially have to donate it because I can't get paid for it out of match fees.

It's just a chicken or the egg thing. And the atrociously poor communication skills of the NRA really doesn't make pursuing the connundrum terribly rewarding or interesting to me. I'm planning on having a quasi-AP event this summer, but it won't be under the NRA's auspices.

E

Edited May 31, 2006 by EricW

[Kimberkid]

Eric~ Being that you have built some wierd stuff in the past, ie 5 Gallon bucket tumbler, you might be mechanical enough to build a mover. A buncha movers have been made out of garage door openers. I never saw one that was really good, but I have shot several that worked. With a bit of know how and some tools, a fully functional mover can be made for under $200. Find a good welder and some scrap and a plate rack wont be expensive either.

[BigDave]

I looked at the Mover set-up at the practice range and all it consists of is a Dayton 1/3 hp 1725 RPM capacitor start motor and a drum fwd/stop/rev switch. I didn't note the pulley size, but it was direct drive. The motor and switch can be had for $200 from Grainger, and probably cheaper locally. I'm wondering how "mobile" one could make that setup?

The other thing I'm considering with some of the local ranges is to have matches w/o the Mover until things get a bit more established. Hell, if you shot the Barricade, Practical and Plates - that's 144 rds - much more than the typical monthly USPSA match.

BTW - here's a challenge (maybe along the lines of a 3 sec El Prez) - hit the 4" X ring 144 times and 48 8" metal plates, under the clock, from 10-50 yds. I don't think anyone has done that at a Match, have they?

[Allgoodhits]

I don't really care who else is shooting a match. I'm certainly no GM "follower".

No way do I want to shoot the same stages over and over again, so no AP for me

Trust me. Shoot an NRA Action Match over and over, and I assure you that you will discover a new way to screw up a good score everytime! That's our surprise to shooting. Seriously, each time, you will conquer a previous obstacle, and possibly fall to a new one.

It is exciting to shoot better than you had previously over a controlled COF. Afterall it is the only way to ascertain anyones skill compared to themselves or others. That is why, the unconventional shooting sports use Classifiers or Standards.

By the way congrats are in order to Kevin "Action Pistolero" Angstadt who placed 5th overall at BC with a 1914. Now that's exciting!

Martin

[BigDave]

I'm reading some of the responses here regarding "hero workship" or similar. My question then is - why do you compete? For me it is twofold. First - it is me against the 1920/192. Second - it is my score compared to those who are winning the match. How does my score stack against the best?

Maybe people don't have the same level of respect for those who win at Bianchi that they hold for those who win at the USPSA Nat's? But, then again, people flock to The Steel Challenge who has mostly the same players (but easier access from an equipment standpoint.)

And, while we're on that subject - what's the cost of a full SC setup vs. the cost of a plate rack and Mover system? I'll wager it isn't much.

[Flexmoney]

I suggested having a second side match using 2 - 4 of the other Action pistol stages not individual stages, but this would not replace the main match. Ryan.

What a great idea.

Having never been to the Cup, is that workable?

[Steve H]

This was my second BC, and I will continue to go as long as it exists.........I would like to piggy back on what 8shooter said, I arrived on Sunday afternoon, and started practicing, and shot everyday except Sat. and shot right at 3400 rounds, in practice and the match. This is the best learning environment I have been in to get back to trigger control and sight alignment.

I have my ideas as to why the match seems to draw less and less shooters. First is I think the rules change to much from year to year. Second is that most IPSC shooters have to choose what matches they are going to travel to, and the BC is not on their list. The reason for that is that most IPSC shooters view the BC as boring, and I really believe that most of us view the BC as too difficult.

One other reason for declining shooters is that most do not have what they view as competitive equipment. Most IPSC shooters have a limited gun that is capable of shooting well enough to be competitive, and could.

Like Julie said, the NRA/BC really needs to have a true production class, very similar to USPSA's.

If they did that, and made it another division, and changed the rules to read, "no one can touch the barricade, only place anyone can go prone is the 50 yard line on the practical", I would expect more new shooters would come to the match. I know that will never happen, because it would piss off the 25-50 shooters in the world who have Bianchi Open guns, just for this match.

I would like to see 3 divisions, Open, Metallic, and Production.

But since the NRA does not enforce current rules, and why would they adopt more to make it more attactive to the first time shooter.

Sorry for the rant.

Steve

[JFD]

Allgoodhits

I can see the shooting/mental challenge, but it's just not for me. Half the fun of USPSA is arriving and checking out the stages to see what surprises/challenges await. I think it would suck if there were only 13 classifiers, and I KNEW it would be one of those 13 at every match, and that's only 1 stage in a 5 stage match.

But that's just me. I'm also less than thrilled that the NRA is involved.

I did just find out there's a Steel Challenge match that's local to me. 7 stages and 175 rounds minimum. Not AP, but something to check out.

Edited June 1, 2006 by JFD

[EricW]

Eric~ Being that you have built some wierd stuff in the past, ie 5 Gallon bucket tumbler, you might be mechanical enough to build a mover. A buncha movers have been made out of garage door openers. I never saw one that was really good, but I have shot several that worked. With a bit of know how and some tools, a fully functional mover can be made for under $200. Find a good welder and some scrap and a plate rack wont be expensive either.

Thanks for thinking highly of my mechanical abilities, but right now the issue is time. There is none.

[EricW]

I'm reading some of the responses here regarding "hero workship" or similar. My question then is - why do you compete? For me it is twofold.

No offense intended Dave. I guess I offered the "why I don't compete" answer.

For me, it's all about the Cup. I see no other reason to offer Action Pistol locally aside from wanting to suck up to the NRA because one wanted to move up the political ladder. Aside from those two things, I see zero draw.

So, if I wasn't equipped to offer events that specifically prepared competitors for the Cup, I simply wouldn't bother. If I want to have an accuracy match, I can simply create a bunch of upper A/B targets within a normal IPSC match.

I'm not trying to bash AP, but it needs to offer something unique to justify it's existence. I also think that with the new "umbrella org" model that USPSA has adopted that the time is right for USPSA to approach the NRA about bringing the Bianchi Cup under that umbrella. It's not like the NRA even *wants* action shooting in its organization anyway. It's a perfect opportunity for the NRA to rid itself of a red-headed stepchild that only seems to bum out it's groove. If that happened, it could breathe new life into the Cup and make it a marketable event again.

FWIW,

E