If [insert Name Of Gm De Jour] Shot Action Pistol...

[Allgoodhits]

Suffice it to say, winning or even placing in top 20 or so at any National, or similar shooting event takes tremendous talent and mental focus. All are to be commended regardless of the discipline.

If one, no matter what the shooting discipline, can shoot their practrice average during a match, they then have mastered the mental game in shooting. Next, simply up your practice average, then shoot it in a match and on and on. With this concept of training and performance, if you keep shooting you will be a winner no matter what your beginning scores were. It will only take time.

Brian Enos writes a great deal about optimal performance sets, and predictable performance sets in one of more of his books. If you haven't read Brian's books, then do so. There is much to be learned from those whom have already traveled the path.

Now let's just shoot!

MJ

[wolfgang]

What a thread !!!???

There seem to be more people caring about Bianchi than I´ve actually seen in Columbia last week. Good so far.

But beside complaining about not being able to shoot the match locally, you guys who know the game should organize a tryout / workshop about Bianchi Shooting t your Range.

As soon as people have tried it, some if not most (with some interest in competition) will stick to it.

After our Organisation here in Germnay brougth our National Cup from 200+ comps down to 40, we the shooters took over and started again.

After 2 Newcomer Workshops in the last 1/2 year we now have again around 100 active BC shooters, resulting in 14 people coming from Germany to Columbia !

Next month will be our National BC and the 60 slots are already full.

If you pro´s help new guys to a start, then the rest will do itself.

Just an example: one of the newbies, André Schröder, shot his 3rd Bianchi Match in life over at the Chapman Academy. He started in Jan06, before he was only shooting 1500.

The Evening before the Match he practiced the Plates together with Rob L. only to clean them next day and finally shot for Xcount together with Rob again.

Where else can you do that ?????? See here: André and Rob

Greetings from Germany

Wolfgang

[Flexmoney]

Flex's words

you aren't going to win shooters over by telling them...basically...that they suck and aren't up to the challenge

Excuse me, but who exactly said "they suck"?

Parapharsing...notice the lack of quotes? Notice the "...basically..." ? I was trying to communicate how it sounded. (and it is just sounding worse and worse now...I'm out)

[BigDave]

All tones aside, let's just stick to what is actually typed here. The unfortunate malady of this or any other such medium is we can't infer tone. If Grant wanted to say we suck, I think I know him well enough through all of this banter on the topic, and meeting him in person, to know he'd acutally say it. Let's let Grant put his own words in his mouth, okay? Please and thank you.

For the sake of clarity, I'm going to try and sum up my position here:

• All of your other shooting will benefit from AP. Yes, you can be an accurate shooter without it, but there isn't a single person I know who has tried AP who doesn't agree that it was a benefit.
  
• The sport is more accessible than you might realize. Most of the COF's are paper based. Any club who has an ICORE contingent makes it that much easier (because both utilize the NRA D-1 target)
  
• The current rules very much accomidate the equipment you already own and use in USPSA, IDPA, ICORE and Steel. Sure, if you want to duke it out for the Cup, the current state of affairs says you need wings, a shroud and mover base. But, let's crawl a bit before we run - many of you haven't even shot this style yet. I shot my first cup in '04 with my SV 40 S&W limited pistol.
  
• The four Cup events consist of 192 rounds, 32 surrender draws, 8 runs on a plate rack, 96 rounds shot at 20+ yds, 12 rounds at 50 yds, all done on the clock. Who could use more work at longer ranges? Who needs to work on their draws? I know I do. If you do, too, you might give this a try.
  
• No, there is no "passing" lane in AP like hit-factor score in USPSA provides, but there isn't one in IDPA or in Steel either. If you drop points or X's in Bianchi, there is no way to make them up, but that is part of attraction. Imagine, at the nationals, that if you drop a single point or X, that is the difference between a championship and an also-ran. Maybe that pressure experice can help you in your current game de jour?
  
• IPSC World Champions Doug Koenig and Rob Leatham have a combined 11 Bianchi Cups (not including Rob's last 3 consecutive metallic wins). Our host, Brian, has two.
  
• In addition to enhancing your shooting skills, AP is an excellent barometer for how well your pistol and ammo work. AP is a fantastic test of mechanical reliability.
  
• If you don't have a match in your area, why not try the COF's in your next practice session? If you're luck enough to have a plate rack, try shooting the Plate event times. If the next sectional or area match has Area-5 Standards as a stage, the Practical event could really help.
  
• Like any of the other gun games you're used to, the folks who shoot AP are first class. Approachable, eager to share (and rib). Most of the folks I know here I met through AP.
  
• It is easier than you think, but harder than you can imagine. The shooting tests don't require a lot of technical proficiency, but AP is truly one of those things where the sum is greater than the total of the parts (did I say that right?).
  
• You'll have more fun than you think
  

None of us - not me, Grant, Martin, Kevin, Mike, anyone wants to put off any antagonistic tones and discourage anyone from trying something that we collectively agree that is one of the best shooting challenges available today. No one is asking you to make it your specialty, only to give it a try. Nothing more, nothing less. If after you try it, you catch the bug and take it more seriously, fan-bloody-tastic. If you only adopt it as part of your practice regimine - that is fan-bloody-tastic, too. We're not selling sake oil. We don't want your money. All we want you to do is shoot.

Thanks

[DougCarden]

I think you summed up your point rather well now, Dave! Thanks for the enthusiasm!

PS....I shoot the plates every other practice session as well!

DougC....My 6in 9x19 is still in pieces but I will make it to the match next year!

[shred]

Long ago there was an AP match within two hours drive. I went once. It wasn't exciting. I wasn't welcomed into the clique that shot absolutely nothing else and had nothing but disdain for any other shooting sport or equipment. I haven't been back. There was and is plenty of other fun shooting with friendly shooters closer to me.

This is why I don't shoot AP.

I would love somebody to start AP at the local NRA-knows-best range and let the geezers 'old guard' discover that holsters are not the devil and it is possible to shoot a steel plate from under 40 meters away and still survive, but I won't be the one driving it unless circumstances change a lot.

[Allgoodhits]

Long ago there was an AP match within two hours drive. I went once. It wasn't exciting. I wasn't welcomed into the clique that shot absolutely nothing else and had nothing but disdain for any other shooting sport or equipment. I haven't been back. There is plenty of other fun shooting with friendly shooters closer to me.

This is why I don't shoot AP.

I would love somebody to start AP at the local NRA-only range and let the geezers 'old guard' know that holsters are not the devil and it is possible to shoot a steel plate from under 40 meters away and still survive, but I won't be the one driving it unless circumstances change a lot.

Ouch! I do understand, however, once is not a pattern and I am sure you will find that all "gun owners" are not like that.

Man this sounds like my Club in Fairfax/Manassas VA near the NRA HQ!

MJ aka Allgoodhits

[Allgoodhits]

What a thread !!!???

There seem to be more people caring about Bianchi than I´ve actually seen in Columbia last week. Good so far.

But beside complaining about not being able to shoot the match locally, you guys who know the game should organize a tryout / workshop about Bianchi Shooting t your Range.

As soon as people have tried it, some if not most (with some interest in competition) will stick to it.

After our Organisation here in Germnay brougth our National Cup from 200+ comps down to 40, we the shooters took over and started again.

After 2 Newcomer Workshops in the last 1/2 year we now have again around 100 active BC shooters, resulting in 14 people coming from Germany to Columbia !

Next month will be our National BC and the 60 slots are already full.

If you pro´s help new guys to a start, then the rest will do itself.

Just an example: one of the newbies, André Schröder, shot his 3rd Bianchi Match in life over at the Chapman Academy. He started in Jan06, before he was only shooting 1500.

The Evening before the Match he practiced the Plates together with Rob L. only to clean them next day and finally shot for Xcount together with Rob again.

Where else can you do that ?????? See here: André and Rob

Greetings from Germany

Wolfgang

Wolfgang,

As I recall you did quite well at the Cup this year, and certainly Jens did with another 1920. And yes, I remember Andre. I shot with him on the plates at the practice range. I noticed he was shooting what I thought was a PPC revolver. He cleaned the plates and I commented to him that he was tough. He responded with "the plates are my favorite".

I shot PPC 1978-1981 in the US. Was fortunate to win Class award at NRA Nationals twice, and Match 5 National Police Course Overall once with a 597 in Des Moines, IA at the PPC Nationals. My best 1500 in a match 1493 and best 1500 in practice 1496 X 2, and numerous 600's. No PPC for me anymore.

I wish I had known about you guys. I could have and would have introduced you to the best PPC 1500 shooter ever. James E. (Jim) Collins, Alabama State Trooper, was at Bianchi at the ZERO table and he stayed at the Baymont. He and I have shot against one another and been good friends since the late 1970's. Collins shot 1500-126X in a registered match, and shot 1500-138X in a approved match and shot a 1499-144X in another match. He is also a 2600+ BE shooter with either hand, and 2670+ BE shooter strong hand) I recall a year at the PPC Nationals in Jackson, MS when someone shot a 599 in Match 5 and they all but gave him the Championship before it was over. The only person who could mathematically beat him was Collins and only if he shot a clean 600 and it had never been done. In fact I don't think a 599 had ever been shot before that day. Well, Collins fired the 600 he needed for the Championship! It was incredible. Collins and others in shooting sports from time past did things before they became "paid" to do it. As awesome as some of the today shooters are, there are still guys like Collins who are legends, yet they are silent as to their accomplishments.

Regards,

Martin AKA Allgoodhits

Edited June 3, 2006 by Allgoodhits

[GrantJ]

Yes! I see light at the end of the tunnel. It is apparent from all of the above comments that a lot of you do get it. Dave, well written. You are right on the money.

For anyone who is interested in trying action pistol, I suggest you stop making excuses and jump in boots and all. You will probably have fun. Rudy Dufour at NRAHQ has a list of every club in the US that shoots on a regular basis. You may be surprised as to how many there are. There may even be one closer than you think. At the "Cup" this year we talked to the Austrians. They have to travel 500 kilometers one way to a range that has a moving target. Even with those problems, they were at the "Cup"

If any of you are in the Columbia, MO area and are interested in giving it a go, let me know and I would be more than happy to run you through the course of fire.

GrantJ

[Alan550]

Shred,

Check out "http://pages.sbcglobal.net/cledus/1st-page.html"

It's a club in San Antonio that shoots a monthly AP match as well as hosting the State & Regional AP matches on the same weekend in October. There's not a friendlier bunch of shooters in the world! (Even if some of them are half nutz!)

Tell 'em the Virginia crew sent you and I promise you'll have a great time!

Alan~^~

[XRe]

• The current rules very much accomidate the equipment you already own and use in USPSA, IDPA, ICORE and Steel.
  

This isn't exactly true, though, is it?? In order to shoot AP, I have to screw up my 1.5lb trigger job on all my guns.... No way, Jose.

[ima45dv8]

• The current rules very much accomidate the equipment you already own and use in USPSA, IDPA, ICORE and Steel.
  

This isn't exactly true, though, is it?? In order to shoot AP, I have to screw up my 1.5lb trigger job on all my guns.... No way, Jose.

Huh? Is there a minimum trigger pull weight in AP?

[XRe]

2lb according to the discussions on our fine forum... Unfortunately, you can't go look at the rules w/o buying a rulebook, so....

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=24800

Edited June 6, 2006 by XRe

[BigDave]

Yeah, Dave you're right. But then again, is that something a $25 leaf spring couldn't correct, is it? when I wrote that I was trying to put down the notion that you needed a different gun for this game and you don't need one, do you?

It really isn't a factor for me b/c the trigger in my Limited blaster is 2.3 lbs.

[XRe]

That's definitely true - but the notion that you can just run out and play with what you have is somewhat misleading. A person wouldn't know the equipment restrictions in that sense, unless they did some digging around on the forum. I don't know how anal they'd be at a local match, but I wouldn't want to be breaking the rules, either, knowingly or not.

If I were to come play and shoot metallic sights, I would need another gun (or, at least, a new barrel), but that's a whole different story (somehow, I think I might need to hold a better group than 4" at 25 yards... )

[BigDave]

I think just about any AP match director would not turn any shooter who came up and said "I want to run my USPSA race gun" at this point. That's more or less how I ended up here.

Look at it like this - if you show up at a State or Regional you should expect that your gun will be checked against the rules, so plan accordingly. If you're just trying to get your feet wet or are just using it for practice, explain to that to the MD and then if you plan on shooting one of the bigger (meant loosely) matches, then get in line with the current rules.

Fewer excuses - more shooting.

[EricW]

This is yet another reason it would be simply wunderbar if AP could eventually be brought under the USPSA umbrella: consistent equipment rules. Consolidation brings efficiency in more than just areas of business. Cross-participation would increase if people felt their equipment would be portable among the sports.

[BigDave]

This is yet another reason it would be simply wunderbar if AP could eventually be brought under the USPSA umbrella: consistent equipment rules. Consolidation brings efficiency in more than just areas of business. Cross-participation would increase if people felt their equipment would be portable among the sports.

+1 Amen!!!

The general trigger rule, IMO, is a by-product of a shooting sport run by a political action comittee. Not that either is bad (shooting sport or a PAC), but I think it demonstrates a point: the NRA is willing to do anything to "save the ship". And, that's fine - but maybe they don't need to be running AP any longer if that's the case. This sport needs a group at the helm that has it's focus on growth.

[hopalong]

Big Daves original question was if the "GM of choice started shooting NRA action pistol would you?".....NOT the exact words but close enough for me.

Dave, I can see you are quite passionate about your AP.....good for you, good luck at it.

My answer......not that it really matters but since you asked.

NO, I only have enough time and money to do USPSA and a few IDPA programs. If every GM that ever was in USPSA started shooting Action Pistol tomorrow, I still would not do it for the above reasons. I know how well cross training in other disciplines work and have kept that secret to myself for as long as I could, but the cat is out of the bag now.

I live in South West Tennessee, and as far as I know there is no range within reasonable driving distance where this discipling of shooting is offered.....(another reason to not shoot it) and my local club is already full every weekend with some sort of event.

Hope that helps you to understand, I too had to cope with a similar situation when I switched over to Revolver in USPSA and wondered why we can't get more participation in that particular division.....there are already thousands of folks shooting USPSA...why not use a revolver???...............You can see where I'm coming from. I now understand that most people do what they do because they have only X amount of time and money to do so and thus the answer we can't seem to understand (until now). Clear as mud I know but that is the comparison I can give you.

Hopalong

[targetshootn]

I have been shooting the BC for the past 18 years and I have seen the numbers decline each year. The only way to keep it alive is to shoot the sport. If you don't shoot AP, you don't have a say so at the meetings. I am going to push this year for the producton class to be able to use the barricades and for the open shooters to be able to go prone, 10 yards if you can! Does anyone have any suggestions, except the 2lb trigger. I've been told that is just not going to happen.

Jeff Rowe

[BigDave]

I have been shooting the BC for the past 18 years and I have seen the numbers decline each year. The only way to keep it alive is to shoot the sport. If you don't shoot AP, you don't have a say so at the meetings. I am going to push this year for the producton class to be able to use the barricades and for the open shooters to be able to go prone, 10 yards if you can! Does anyone have any suggestions, except the 2lb trigger. I've been told that is just not going to happen.

Jeff Rowe

Jeff,

Great to see you here. Do you know if the petition that the aussies were circulating has made it anywhere, or are they still gather signatures back home? I"m going to put one up at the next AP match back home on the same topic. Many of you guys who have been at this for a while said it best - regulate the gun, not the shooter.

I've said it before (as others have), but Production really needs to be a division separate from Metallic sight. If it were aligned with USPSA Production or IDPA SSP/SSR, that could give us a direct tap into those two sports. Right now, they still have to complete against "factory" 1911s. Different animals. Build it and they will come (I hope anyway)

I think the trigger is a losing battle with the NRA - and a mindless rule to start with. Despite their claims, there isn't a single grain of logic that factored into their decision and as someone pointed out at the meeting, not universal among all other NRA shooting disciplines (sp?).

Thanks!!!

Dave Pluimer

[BigDave]

Hop - I understand.

We all have only so much time. All I want anyone to do who hasn't shot AP before to do is to give it a try if the opportunity presents itself, and then if that ignites a spark that maybe one of you will create an opportunity for others to come on board. Much of the sport's woes stems from a lack marketing - letting people know how accessible and beneficial it is. Those of us who shoot are trying to change that.

[kimmbeckwith]

Some of the problems we have at our club is we are not shooting AP anymore. Just a few of our members were and a few from the Hutchinson club. When it was going strong, between Gred Dick, Justin Blackburn and myself it was like a regional twice a month. I think having three High Master that all were shooting above 1900 pretty regularly hurt the few that were shooting AP and really discouraged the new shooters. Any of you that have shot this match for over 20 years, know how tough that level is to achieve and to maintain. It really hurt my scores as well as Greg's when Justin moved to Oklahoma. That push to practice and try and beat him or Greg just seemed to go away.

We tried to shoot just metalic some of the time to give others a chance but Justin and Greg were both about as good with those guns also. Troy Mattheyer made them aware that he could shoot his Metalic gun and won also.

Now our matches are IDPA only, so if I want to shoot AP I'll have to make the 65 mile drive to Hutch, which is fine, but we used to have 2 AP a month and that was great.

Jeff, congrads on your score, you did really well!!! I am sorry to hear that the 2lb. issue in not up for dicussion. How about asking the NRA why in PPC the only trigers that are weighed are in Distinguishec matches? Why aren't all the guns not subject to trigger pull. AP is not weighing just Open Guns!

See you all next year!

Kim M. Beckwith

[SRT Driver]

I was shooting AP before I knew any GM's.

But that said, the reasons I don't shoot AP anymore:

1. One club closed, another is under new leadership on a weekend I can't do.

2. 300 + mi round trip to any club shooting AP.

3. Rule changes.

4. Gas prices.

5. Time.

6. Apathy.

7. Boredom.

Even shot a State match with my USPSA Production class Glock to mix it up a bit. Now, even that gun is illegal to shoot at the 'Cup. Trigger pull.....

We tried AP at our club. Since we don't have a mover or a 50 yard range anymore, everyone didn't see the point and just shoot USPSA. Everyone who has heard of AP associates it with the 4 'Cup events. All of the other events are fillers or adaptations, IMHO.

We tried the Combat event. More targets we can't use for anything else. There was already a PPC program.

We tried Int Rapid Fire. Went over like a lead ballon. Everyone asked where were the .22 shorts!

Los Alamitos - OK but...

Flying M - the can got kicked all over the place.

Maybe my personality has changed but I can shoot a USPSA match a weekend, sometimes 2, within a reasonable driving distance and have half a day left to spend with my family.

[EricW]

This is yet another reason it would be simply wunderbar if AP could eventually be brought under the USPSA umbrella: consistent equipment rules. Consolidation brings efficiency in more than just areas of business. Cross-participation would increase if people felt their equipment would be portable among the sports.

+1 Amen!!!

...This sport needs a group at the helm that has it's focus on growth.

I hope that forces within USPSA see your thread, your passion, and your frustrations and see an opportunity within them.