What Makes The Nationals Worth $275 To Enter?

[1911user]

What makes the production nationals (or any class) worth so much more than state or area matches to justify a $275 entry? Is it a what the market will pay issue? For someone who can't spend $5-10K per year on shooting, that seems like a great deal of money for one match even if semi-local for me and I could somehow get a slot. I suspect the answer is "if you have to ask, you don't get it". I can live with that answer but I'm still asking the question. Is it a prestige' factor? Is the prize payout so great that 2nd place D class in each division takes home a frame or a new gun? I put this in the beginner section since it's obviously a newbie question and not an attempt to stir up anything.

[Al Capizzo]

Well, it sure isn't the prize table. I think it is the fact that it is the one place where ALL the best shooters in the country show up for a single match. It is prestiges for the winners, not so much for the rest of us.

As far as bang for your buck value kinda thing, you can't beat most Area matches.

[AlamoShooter]

The fee sounds very cheep to me...but I spent years shooting Sporting Clays.

If for a big match you get RO's to work the match and back up RO's. Would you work the match for days and not have them pick up your hotel and food exp.?

If you have ben a part of putting on a event of any size you would see how the cash is sucked up in no time at all. That said I have not attended a IPSC national shoot. but wvery event I have ben to is a great value for the dollar.

Edited May 28, 2006 by AlamoShooter

[1911user]

I understand some of the match expenses and was just trying to reconcile the entry fee difference between state/area matches vs. nationals. No offense intended. I can see I'm too frugal for my own good.

[AlamoShooter]

I understand some of the match expenses and was just trying to reconcile the entry fee difference between state/area matches vs. nationals. No offense intended. I can see I'm too frugal for my own good.

OH I was not offended in any way =Frugal is very good. I helped with and put on a few 1/2 way large shoots and a state shoot. and when you have to take $$$ out of your own pocket so that a others get to shoot it makes an imprestion on you that stays.

I wish in lot of ways I had ben more frugal with what I spent.

But one good way to stretch you shooting $$$ is to jump in and help.

If the national event will be local for you that would be a great ticket to get to shoot. My USPSA # is from 1991 and I have never shot a USPSA national event

[John Dunn]

Only you can decide if it's worth it for you. The National's stages are top notch, but the Area matches I've been to have compared favorably with Nationals. The officiating is great at the Nationals. Don't know about the prize table, as I generally have to get home ASAP after the match.

Why shoot Nationals when an Area match is cheaper?

Why shoot an Area match when a local match is cheaper?

Why shoot at all?

[Rob Boudrie]

I understand some of the match expenses and was just trying to reconcile the entry fee difference between state/area matches vs. nationals. No offense intended. I can see I'm too frugal for my own good.

The fundamental difference is how RO's and support staff are funded. Most of the RO's at Area matches do not involve any expense other than a bit of food, though some area matches may put a few up in hotes. The staff at USPSA National Championships stays in hotel rooms at USPSA expense, and I belive receives partial funding of their travel expenses. USPSA also bring out HQ staff to the nationals which causes a travel and lodging cost not incurrent at ARea Matches.

Some of the money goes towards prizes, however, the majority of the fee goes towards operational expenses. Even if USPSA made the nationals "no prize" events, the match fee would not be drastically altered.

[38superman]

For a shooter, Nationals is just a great experience.

Part of it is the social aspect.

It draws all the top shooters (and a host of others).

You get to meet and shoot with some great people from all over the country and the world.

The Pasa Park venue is a first class facility.

The stages are top notch and there are plenty of them.

The 2004 Nationals had more than 20 stages, 2005 had 18.

There are some really interesting ones that you just won't see too often.

My personal favorite is the dark house.

Despite the cost, there is a waiting list every year.

That happens for a reason.

Tony

Edited May 29, 2006 by tlshores

[wide45]

Given the cost of hotels, food, and traveling expenses, the match fee is small potato's.

What would you pay to play golf in a major tournament with the likes of Tiger Woods?

[1911user]

Given the cost of hotels, food, and traveling expenses, the match fee is small potato's.

What would you pay to play golf in a major tournament with the likes of Tiger Woods?

I gave up golf 12 years ago due to a first child on the way and the recurring expenses of golf. Playing with Tiger isn't even an option, but I understand the analogy. Fortunately, there are some good club matches within an hours drive. I get to pick which 1 or 2 to shoot each month.

I don't have the extra money to consider attending distant matches. However, I live about 60 miles from the range in Tulsa and that may provide some unique shooting opportunities in the future. I will not try to get a slot for the production nationals this year, but may do some volunteer work there instead. Thanks for the info.

Why shoot Nationals when an Area match is cheaper?

Why shoot an Area match when a local match is cheaper?

Why shoot at all?

I've been forced to consider those questions and didn't shoot USPSA at all from 2000-2005.

Edited May 29, 2006 by 1911user

[BritinUSA]

This is a good question and the answer is dependant on what you want to gain from the sport. If you are happy shooting local matches and enjoy that aspect of the sport then the money seems excessive.

If however, you want to see how you compare with some of the best shooters in the world then the cost starts to become more reasonable. The down-side is that you don't get much opportunity to see the top shooters in action and learn from what they do. The top shooters all get squadded together, there are pros and cons for this and I won't go into them here.

If you want to learn from the top shooters then there are always the training sessions that many offer or you could check out Saul Kirsch's DVDs as they are excellent for seeing how the top guys break down and shoot a stage.

There is a 'BIG MATCH' atmosphere at Nationals or any Level IV or V match. Whenever I attend I always feel that I'm taking part in something special. The top shooters at this sport are on par with the Tiger Woods of the world and how often do you get to play the same competition as Tiger ?

I think everyone should try and shoot at least one Nationals, the course designs are exceptional and are a genuine challenge to anyone.

Just my 2 cents

[Chris Keen]

Playing with Tiger (Woods) isn't even an option, but I understand the analogy.

You may not get to play on the same squad, but imagine shooting the same match as Rob Letham, Max Michel, Dave Sevigny, Chris Tilley, Todd Jarrett, Saul Kirsch, Brad Balsley, Emanuel Bragg, Jerry Miculek, etc.

I shoot major matches to see how well I can do (personally) and to see how well I can improve on that the next time around.

Why do you shoot ?

[Wakal]

Well, you don't shoot it for the match staff (see previous year's Nationals discussions for wildly inconsistant "rulings" and amazingly "not-a-rule-so-lets-make-it-one" decisions), nor for the stages (pedestrian, at best), or for the location (speaking of Bend and PASA).

You shoot it to compete against the best shooters in the world.

Alex

[Jim Norman]

I have to agree to a point with Alex. The stages are good, but only rarely is there really more than one way to shoot one. True, you CAN shoot a stage in your own way, but truly most flow best shot only one way. I have seen stages that are far more challenging at local matches and Area matches, but of course few of those stages ever had to cycle 400 times without failure. The Dark-house is an exception, how many clubs have a 360 shoot-house that is dark?

The officiating is OK, for the most part. I have seen a few calls that left me wondering if anyone there had read the rules. One thing that would help in my opinion would be having more staff. We could split the match into an AM/PM match shot over 6 days, you shoot three mornings and three afternoons. All one large match, all divisions. We can have about 500 shooters as opposed to the 300 or so we currently get. There could be more stages and smaller squads. The answer however is more QUALIFIED staff. That is the hard part. I know I for one would rather shoot than work at Nationals. Maybe someday…

PASA Park is a great shooting venue, all it needs is shade and to be moved 40 miles closer to civilization. There is only one hotel within 10 mile of the place, all the rest are at least 30 miles away. From a family vacation point of view, there is precious little to do once you are done shooting. Some of us that are not exactly in the running for top 16 would maybe bring the family, but why? there is NOTHING there.

HOWEVER

This is a test of your shooting skills and of your ability to use them when all you have left is what you know. You are beat down to a point that you cannot bluff your way through simply because you are young and strong. You need to have internalized your skill to a point where they are simply a part of you the same as walking. PASA can be hot, make that HOT! You are shooting all day for three days, you can be great on day one, but by day three, you are fried. Can you stand up to the pressure of shooting for three days? Can your gear? It is a mental game as well as a physical one. Sure, you can shoot at your home club on Sunday after shooting at a different club on Saturday, but each night you are home in your bed eating a meal in your dinning room. And there is no tie in between each performance, Saturdays match has no bearing on Sunday, Sunday has no bearing on Saturday. Each 5-6 stage match stands on its own. At the Nationals, you have to be good every day, all day. Squads are large, you have a lot of down time between your shooting times. This gives you a lot of time to think and too much time to cool off before your next run. The Nationals area test, perhaps the most physically demanding, mentally demanding test many of us will ever face.

So, to answer your question about is the Nationals worth $275.00? I would say Yes! If you want to test yourself as a shooter against the best of the best.

Jim Norman

[Chris Keen]

WOW!

I concur ....

Great speech Jim

[Religious Shooter]

I've been to two 3 Gun Nationals. This year I am going to the 3 Gun Nationals in Albany and for the first time ever the Limited Nationals in Barry.

I've been shooting IPSC now for freakin' 10-12 years. Probably the main reason I am going to Barry is so that I can say I went to the (a pistol) Nationals. I want to go to Mecca (e.g. Bary).

I can't see spending that much time and that much $ on the sport and just not ever be at THE Big Show.

[1911user]

I get the message: the cost is insignifigant compared to the glory and majesty of the event itself. I won't be going, but the fact that there are waiting lists every year means something is being done right. Good luck to all participants.

[XD Niner]

Only $275? Do you have any idea how much a health spa would charge for a treatment that let you sweat off ten pounds in only three days? Obviously, this is a true bargain!

[Waltermitty]

I think the topic has been well covered in this thread, but I just wanted to add one additional perspective.

The biggest part of the cost is the staff. CRO's, RO's, Match Directors, Range Masters, Stats staff, and etc.

Stages are designed, built, ran, then the whole thing is torn down. The costs are pretty easy to document. I don't think anybody gets a salary.

Your local club matches are cheaper because the whole thing is run by volunteers that not only don't get compensation for expenses, but also pay a match fee to boot. Your local volunteers buy materials, pay insurance, deal with regulatory issues and a myriad other administrative club tasks for nothing; and in most cases pay important amounts of money out of their own pockets (like club membership fees, etc) to make sure the program is as good as it can be.

The real question is, how is it possible to have a choice of match venues and only have to pay $10 - $15 for the fun?

Your local match fees shouldn't be the measure of how expensive Nationals is, Nationals should be an indicator of the value you recieve at your local clubs because of that dedicated core of workers that make everything possible by contributing their money, time and talent simply for the love of the sport.

So if you haven't already, go get RO certification, design stages and show up early to set them up, volunteer to do anything and everything that needs to be done to support a successful match program.

Try to imagine putting the whole show on 500 miles away, where the only thing already there are the berms; and you'll have to pay rent for those.

$275.00 sounds pretty dern cheap to me.

[Steve Moneypenny]

well as a poor person i can say $275 isn't cheap, but it's definitley worth the value. and you are getting more bang for your buck when you look at about any other sport out there.

Nationals is double that of most area matches. which run $100 entry fee normally. Also they generally replace targets more at nationals. They have more elaborate (new) props for many matches, props when moved stay with the host club.

Much more printing postage and manual labor (thanks uspsa staff) goes into this match the registration is a nightmare for these poor folks with all of the procedure it goes throuch. Stages go through much greater scrutny too. Granted i have seen more challenging stages other places but we they break more often. nationals is usually a good solid test of shooting skills which is what it should be. That way youc an compare yourself against the best of the best.

Nationals awards seem to be a little nicer.

Tons of RO shirts plus any compensation they get (which is greatly desered most staff do not get to shoot the match as i understand)

Comraderie with your friends as you walk stages, enjoy a stogie and a good meal.... Priceless!

[m.e.t.]

A friend and I were walking the stages at the nationals last year. And up walks Todd Jarret. We watch him look the stage over and when he was done we introduced ourselves. He walked us through the stage and pointed out what, how and why he was going to shoot it in a certain way. Now brother that was worth the admission price by itself. Though he did ask me for $20 when he found out I did not shoot his brand of pistol. And yes we folllowed him to the next stage and got the same treatment. Though he pointed out to me that I now owe him $40.

As wide45 said in an ealier post. You are on the field with the best in the world.

Not many of my non-shooting friends will ever have that in there chosen hobbies.

[Front Man]

As close as you live to the venue, it will be the least expensive National you could ever shoot.

You can probably even drive home one night!

I drove 2800+ miles round trip to my one and only National.

Good Times!

Maybe the problem is you live too close.

BTW; last weekend I drove 1300+ miles round trip to a sectional.

Match entry money was the cheapest part of the trip!

FM

Edited May 31, 2006 by Front Man

[mike cyrwus]

A friend and I were walking the stages at the nationals last year. And up walks Todd Jarret.

Now that is worth the price of admission!

[davidball]

I may be over-simplifying, but . . . it is THE NATIONALS. As has been eluded to above, in how many other hobbies or amateur sports does the "average" competitor get to compete in the national championship of their chosen sport?

By the way, I was one of the friends with m.e.t. when Jarret showed up and it WAS VERY COOL. We also spent our "down time" watching the super squad shoot and taking mental notes. One of the stages we saw was the speed shoot on the six poppers. We had watched several of the supers run in the low 3's. Unfortunately, I had to use the port-o-potty when Jarret stepped into the box. I'm in there taking care of business and listening. I hear the buzzer and bam-bam-bam-bam-bam-bam. I say to myself, "Man, that was fast". Sure enough, Jarrett pulled a 2.98. You can't put a price on that kind of experience.

Edited May 31, 2006 by davidball

[bobaloo]

Never been to one but the 3-gun Nationals are at my local range and I can tell you that guys have been working (as in moving dirt and building partitions) for the last 3 months for a match the end of July. Every Wednesday evening is a 4-hour work session just for prep for the match, and that's just to get the range ready, so I know there's a ton of work involved. They're building huge stacks of 8' square panels for the stages, with the price of lumber these days that's not cheap even with volunteer labor.

Looking forward to going as a spectator and working as a volunteer.