CM 99-09

[ErikW]

Forty yard Bill Drills!

Shot this with a Limited gun yesterday. I had only shot it with an Open gun previously. It's certainly different!

4 Warren, Erik 27 M Limited 95 10 36.26 2.3442 62.5760 52.15%
7 Warren, Erik 10 A Open 110 0 31.20 3.5256 72.3336 60.28%

For the third string, start a ways back from the fault line so you can go prone without faulting. At the beep, grab a magazine from your belt and take it down with you for the reload later. Hold the gun into the ground; don't shoot off your elbows.

I shot an uncalled Miss kneeling. Lots of people shot lots of misses prone. Most people shot low. Prone turned out to be my best target, with an actual group appearing. Thanks to BE and all for the prone tips.

With anything besides a 9mm or Sooper, your bullets may be dropping by 40 yards, so hold high if that's the case. With an Open gun, if it's not zeroed for 40 it's going to be high or low. Know your bullet path and compensate.

Our fault line was warped and/or the ground wasn't level, so it had some play... People who rested their hands/guns on it were bouncing all over the place from recoil.

When I reloaded, I dropped the mag straight down. Went I went to rest the gun, the dropped mag was in the way. Next time I'll flick it away as I drop it.

Edited September 12, 2013 by sperman
Fixed Broken Link

[Detlef]

I've shot it several times, and there were two key ingredients:

1. Flick the ejecting mag out of the way (left for me) on the prone reload.

2. Hold high: My gun *is* zeroed at 50 y, and I always shoot low at that distance anyway! I've never understood this completely, at 50 y I'd expect to see any trend that I see at 25 y multiplied by two. It is never like that. Must have to do with how I align the sights on *far* targets when in a hurry...

I also found it faster and simpler to leave the mag for the prone reload where it is (3rd mag pouch on the belt) and not put it on the ground.

--Detlef

[ErikW]

Interesting, I also hold high with iron sights at long range, though my bullets aren't dropping that much. Had the same trouble on the 35-40 yard Steel Challenge targets.

In the classifier, I held at the top of the A zone, maybe even into the C a bit. On the prone target that's where I grouped, centered around the perf.; the standing and kneeling targets had lower groups.

Bad trigger control? Flinch?

[Detlef]

yes, my questions, too. I have the same problem prone or standing. My hold is same as yours, and it bothers me every time. At 25 y all is in order, it shoots where I hold, *certainly* not 5 in. low (see below). At 50 y (or 40), everything goes into the bottom C or even D w/o the special hold. That is approx. 10 in! And it only happens under time pressure.

?????

--D.

(Edited by Detlef at 1:35 pm on Jan. 24, 2002)

[ErikW]

Yup, about 10" low. I think I shot at least one sweet group in the C zone at the LimNats standards stage last year.

Help us Obi-Wan Benos, you're our only hope.

[38supPat]

Guy Neill did an article for Front sight I believe, and using ballistic data came up with a 50 (or 60) yard zero for .40 and 100 yards for supers. This is based on the bullet not travelling more than 2" above or below the plane of the sights. But that is also dependant on bullet weight and velocity.

Pat

[Detlef]

no, Pat, we're talking something else here except ballistics. My gun *is* zeroed at 50 y, where I believe the 170 PF 180 gr 40 is still on the rise. So I would not see anything like 10" off. And even if Erik zeroes at less than 50 y, he'd be expected to shoot *high* at that distance. No ballistics, some shooting mistake...

--Detlef

[ErikW]

I guesstimated a sight height of .3 inches for iron sights and computed the trajectory of a 180 gr at 930 fps with various zeroes. At worst, we're talking 1.5 inches of drop at 40 yards. It's not the trajectory, it's us.

(FYI, 40-50 yards is an excellent zero range for a Limited gun.)

(More FYI, testing the absolute best and absolute worst ballistic coefficients with the G1 drag function, because I don't really know the BC of my bullets, the BC has an insignificant effect on the trajectory of a 180 gr .40.)

[eerw]

You guys see the thread>>>

http://www.brianenos.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard...32&topic=45

Voigt suggest sighting in at 7 at upper A zone..

then your bullet will rise at  longer ranges..check it out

[Detlef]

that thread has nothing to do with what we're talking about here (no ballistic bullet rise or open guns involved).

--D.

[Ron Ankeny]

For what it's worth, I used to shoot alot of PPC (Master)and a guy just has to shoot well at 50 yards to be in the running. With the same zero I shoot high in prone, not quite as high sitting, right on standing without support, and low off of the bench. All boils down to sight alignment and amount of free recoil. Doesn't matter as long as you know what to do and are consistent.

[DBChaffin]

I shot this one yesterday, having never shot it before.  It was rough on a LOT of people in the match in all divisions.  Having read this thread and having shot my gun previously at 50 yards really helped.  (I shoot slightly low at long range, and more noticeably so when prone just as mentioned above)

1. Chaffin, Bryant  23  A  Limited  106  0  27.11  3.9100  120.0000 100.00%

If my math is correct, and the HHF hasn't changed, it should be about 85.24% nationally.  

FWIW, I had the benefit of shooting last and watching a LOT of others trash it, including several that were in the running for the local match win.  Although it put some pressure on me, it made me realize how important the points were.  I decided to relax and try to concentrate on fundamentals.  Well, I wanted to anyway.

1st String, standing.  Good smooth draw, try to watch what the sights were telling me.  Held for middle of A zone as best I could at that range.  Felt like I shot a bit too fast but it felt good and I felt like I called relatively good hits.  Turned out to be 4 A's, 2 C's.  Don't remember the time.

2nd String, kneeling.  Used the advice found in Matt Burkett's Video/DVD series.  Don't step forward to kneel.  Simply drop one knee straight to the ground (I went onto my right knee).  It's more controlled and takes less movement.  You're ready to shoot as soon as the knee hits the ground.  Again felt like I went a bit too fast but felt ok trying to call the shots as best as I could.  3 A's, 3 C's.  Again, no idea on the time, I think it was a second or so longer than standing though.

3rd string, prone.  I don't remember the exact motions but I popped the gun and a reload mag out and went down.  Got the gun on the ground as well as my right forearm and both elbows.  Held for top of the A zone because I know I shoot low prone.  Reload was slightly awkward but not too bad.  Thanks to this thread I flicked the 1st mag out to the right to get it out of the way.  Called one really bad shot high left after the load.  Felt like it might have gone over the shoulder of the target.   The rest felt pretty good but again a bit too fast.  The bad shot turned out to be a D on the upper left of the target.  There was another D on the right (uncalled), 3 C's, and 7 A's.  Yet again no idea on the time.

I think the above was probably about right for my current level, maybe at the upper limit of it.  Although there were a few small things I could have done better, overall I was pleased.

[Matthew_Mink]

This could have been a real good one for me, but the gun puked and it took around 10 sec to clear the mystery jam. #&%#

115pts 36.22 sec 3.1750 hf 55.702% sound about right?

Again, I don't have the scoresheets in front of me, but that jam on the first string blew it for me. I had all my hits but that freakin jam killed me!!

oh yeah, edited to add I was using a borrowed STI Open gun.

[ErikW]

Serendipity! I just re-sighted in my chrome Limited gun at 40 yards. Wasn't happy with my shooting and kept shooting groups, standing, at that distance until I got it right. Then the M.D. sets up this classifier for today's match. Hot diggity!

First string: Beep... Yank-Bang. Damn. Bang..Bang..Bang..Bang..Bang. 5-something seconds.

Second string: Uneventful, 7-something seconds.

Third string: Grabbed mag and gun and went prone aggressively. Shot aggressively. 14-something seconds.

Walking downrange... The horror, the horror! Groups centered on the right C/D perfs, maybe a little into the D zone. Kneeling was the worst. Prone was a real stick-killer. Four A, three Misses, the balance Cs and Ds. Major suckage.

Limited 70 points 30 penalties 27.73 time 1.4425 hit factor

Wha' happened? I blame the different sunlight. I cured myself of the thumbing-to-the-right problem, didn't I? My trigger control isn't that bad. Two days previous, I was bracketing a strip of tape down the center of the A zone, slow fire.

Hey Detlef, I didn't shoot low!

Edited October 30, 2003 by Erik Warren

[benos]

If I've ever felt rushed while shooting prone, my shots usually end up anywhere (but the A zone). Even in the "slow" time limits at the Cup, I've noticed I tend to shoot low - especially in the match. And since you only get to shoot the match once, it's difficult to determine exactly where the problem lies. But year after year, when I'd shoot low in the match at 50 whereas all my practice strings were fine, I began to wonder why.

My feeling is that several new factors appear during the stress and anxiety experienced during the match and influence what happens. In no particular order:

1. Attention on the last thing that happens as or just before the gun fires is slightly eroded; resulting in a reduced ability to precisely call, like you can in practice, exactly where each shot went.

2. An excess concern over results shifts attention to favor sight picture as opposed to where your attention should be - ON sight alignment.

3. A reduced ability to _feel_ the shot off, which is caused by the decrease in fine motor-skill sensitivity, again the result of "the juice."

4. The stress of the match can make you feel (and shoot like) you just want to "get it over with."

I can't say I have "the solution," which, if you can identify with anything above, you may be waiting for. But I can say what has worked for me (on difficult or prone shots) is - as the gun comes into my vision, forget every single thing in the world except, 1) point the sights/gun to the exact center of the target, (which has been the central focus of my vision since the draw began), then 2) once I've confirmed that my gun is aimed at the center of the target consciously shift 99% of my attention to the sight alignment and consciously keep it there until I'm done shooting. With utmost interest and curiosity, witness every little detail of the front and rear sights relationship until you have completed the string of fire. The ease with which one can do this is proportional to a lack of concern over results.

Nobody said this was easy. That's why we do it, right?

[Jon Merricks]

Man I really tanked this one. I got all my hits until I went prone. I was aiming just below the center of the A zone, which at that distance could have been A/C zone. The ones that did hit the paper were in a pretty tight group (for me) but all in the 6 o'clock D zone. I really felt having a FO front sight hurt me on this stage. I did get to see Chris Tilley shoot it at a 5.1 hf that looked pretty cool.

[dv8]

I have not shot from prone until now, and the first thing I discovered is that my head is in such position that my glasses are absolutely usless. I cant see my sights without glasses very well, but in the prone position the only thing I can look at through glasses is the ground right in front of my nose. To see the sights and a target I need to look away, or even up. My glasses are way below the desired line of sight.

Has anyone figured out a way to deal with this? There is no way I gonna see the sight picture having to look above the glasses, and the only way I found so far is to rest my elbows on the ground, lifting the gun about 6 inches above the ground and hope for some decent hits.

Any suggestions here?

Thanks.

[Jake Di Vita]

I don't know much about corrective eye wear.

Is there any chance you could wear contacts to correct your vision and regular shooting glasses?

[dv8]

Thanks Jake, that would be a perfect solution for those who wear contacts. Since I don't wear them, I'll have to come up with something else - like taping my glasses to my forehead or something. I imagine RO's face when he sees me doing that

[MoNsTeR]

Shot this yesterday. I had never even shot at a target further than 25yds with a pistol, and it showed. Out of 54 competitors, 1 Limited shooter and 3 Open shooters shot it clean (and one of each of those was a GM). All the Prod and L10 guys had misses.

I shot 62 points with 4 misses (2 kneeling, 2 prone) in 43.87sec for my first hit factor less than one (0.5015) The DA pull on a Beretta sure doesn't help on this one!

[dv8]

... The DA pull on a Beretta sure doesn't help on this one!

True. That;s most likely how I got a mike there too.

I had 1 mike, and 3 Ds in 39.38. HF = 1.8029

It probably is well under 40% nationally (Prod Div).

BTW,when shooting from prone I ended up on my elbows, holding the gun high enough so I could see the sights through the glasses. got 11 As and 1 C there.

[Singlestack]

Wow.

I set this one up today at practice and it is tough. The best run I had (limited) was a 2.5 hf.

Low left seemed to be the order of the day.

Anybody ever try sitting for string 3?

[chp5]

Anybody ever try sitting for string 3?

Per the instructions, string 3 must be shot prone or "supine." Singlestack and I had to look up "supine" to figure out what it meant (lying on your back).

Has anyone shot it supine? I hate prone!!

Also, when you shoot supine, it seems that some of the shooter's legs may be slightly downrange (but to the side) of the muzzle. Is that a DQ?

[ima45dv8]

Anybody ever try sitting for string 3?

Per the instructions, string 3 must be shot prone or "supine." Singlestack and I had to look up "supine" to figure out what it meant (lying on your back).

Has anyone shot it supine? I hate prone!!

Also, when you shoot supine, it seems that some of the shooter's legs may be slightly downrange (but to the side) of the muzzle. Is that a DQ?

I wouldn't think so, as long as you don't point the gun at your leg/foot. Take the example of opening a door. Most folks pull the gun back and to the side and reach for the door. Your off-hand IS down-range of the gun, but unless you sweep that hand with the gun, no DQ.

If I remember correctly, the supine position most used to use was the Creedmore. Knees up and together, gun/wrist alongside the strong-side leg for stability, Off-hand curled up and placed on ground behind head/neck to support the head (much easier to see the sights without undue strain on the neck muscles). It sort of pointed the off-hand elbow straight up in the air (hard to describe on paper). The IMHSA crowd popularized it for longer distances. And most wisely used a leather pad of their strong-side leg to prevent those nasty powder burns.

HTH

[chp5]

Anybody ever try sitting for string 3?

Per the instructions, string 3 must be shot prone or "supine." Singlestack and I had to look up "supine" to figure out what it meant (lying on your back).

Has anyone shot it supine? I hate prone!!

Also, when you shoot supine, it seems that some of the shooter's legs may be slightly downrange (but to the side) of the muzzle. Is that a DQ?

I wouldn't think so, as long as you don't point the gun at your leg/foot. Take the example of opening a door. Most folks pull the gun back and to the side and reach for the door. Your off-hand IS down-range of the gun, but unless you sweep that hand with the gun, no DQ.

If I remember correctly, the supine position most used to use was the Creedmore. Knees up and together, gun/wrist alongside the strong-side leg for stability, Off-hand curled up and placed on ground behind head/neck to support the head (much easier to see the sights without undue strain on the neck muscles). It sort of pointed the off-hand elbow straight up in the air (hard to describe on paper). The IMHSA crowd popularized it for longer distances. And most wisely used a leather pad of their strong-side leg to prevent those nasty powder burns.

HTH

I think of it more as lying on your back with your feet toward the target, heals near your butt, knees spread (no dirty comments please).

The pistol is between your legs, two hands on the pistol, bracing your forearms against the inside of your legs.