Look Like I Won't Be Shooting

[10mmdave]

....the slimmed down 610 in any ICORE Limited matches

(not that I planned to) the below is from the revised rule book on the web.

Thought I'd post the info here in case anybody was setting up a wheelie like mine for

double duty !

Effective January 1, 2007, rule D is revised to:

D. Any barrel other than an unaltered factory barrel or an unaltered factory replacement barrel made by the revolver’s manufacturer.

Alterations to the barrel other than what is required to safely install the barrel are not permitted in Limited Division. (Revised 2/16/06)

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

....the slimmed down 610 in any ICORE Limited matches

(not that I planned to) the below is from the revised rule book on the web.

Thought I'd post the info here in case anybody was setting up a wheelie like mine for

double duty !

Effective January 1, 2007, rule D is revised to:

D. Any barrel other than an unaltered factory barrel or an unaltered factory replacement barrel made by the revolver’s manufacturer.

Alterations to the barrel other than what is required to safely install the barrel are not permitted in Limited Division. (Revised 2/16/06)

Guess that lets the Buick out too

[hdgun]

....the slimmed down 610 in any ICORE Limited matches

(not that I planned to) the below is from the revised rule book on the web.

Thought I'd post the info here in case anybody was setting up a wheelie like mine for

double duty !

Effective January 1, 2007, rule D is revised to:

D. Any barrel other than an unaltered factory barrel or an unaltered factory replacement barrel made by the revolver’s manufacturer.

Alterations to the barrel other than what is required to safely install the barrel are not permitted in Limited Division. (Revised 2/16/06)

Guess that lets the Buick out too

Sounds like it. But like Dave said, I did not plan on shooting it in ICORE

[Tom Mainus]

I only get to shoot 1 ICORE match a year at Bend of the River. Was this barrel thing becoming a problem in limited division? Any of you ICORE insiders have an answer? Are they just trying to stop an equipment race before it starts. My limited guns are all stock so it won't affect me, but are there going to be some pissed off people in the southwest who have a bunch of non-legal guns as of 1-1-07?

Tom

[AzShooter]

The reason the rule goes into effect January of 07 is to let those people with guns that are currently legal but would be ilegal under the new rule be able to shoot this year's IRC and have enough time to prepare for next year.

Over the past few years there have been a number of complaints because some people have modified their guns in Limited beyond what competitors believed was keeping in the limited spirit.

This year we tried to answer all questions on the rule and, although it does effect some shooters ( not many ) in the long run I hope it will help stop a sub equipment race in Limited.

Steven Bressan

ICORE Rules Coordinator.

[revchuck]

Steve - As (primarily) an IDPA revolver shooter, I feel your pain. I hope y'all get through this with less acrimony than IDPA did.

[J.Bagakis]

The reason the rule goes into effect January of 07 is to let those people with guns that are currently legal but would be ilegal under the new rule be able to shoot this year's IRC and have enough time to prepare for next year.

Over the past few years there have been a number of complaints because some people have modified their guns in Limited beyond what competitors believed was keeping in the limited spirit.

This year we tried to answer all questions on the rule and, although it does effect some shooters ( not many ) in the long run I hope it will help stop a sub equipment race in Limited.

Steven Bressan

ICORE Rules Coordinator.

Hey Steve, can you exspand on the Limited guns that are pushing the rules? I don't recall seeing any revolvers in Limited that had other than factory barrels on them.

I have been a big fan of sight radius, like the 6.5" Performance center Mod. 27 and 627.

I finally got a 6.5" 627, but they are very hard to find.

I would be nice if we could get S&W to start making the 6.5" 627 again.

Thanks

John

[hearthco]

Everytime I hear the phrase "equipment race" I wanna PUKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kimberkid]

While I dig that Limited needs to be Limited and not allowed to run wild, I am not sure how cutting a 6.5 inch 610 down to 5 inches gives me an advantage. Thats what was done to mine. I'd rather have a true 5incher, but they are hell to come by and S&W wont let loose any 5 inch barrels.

I guess this is one of the things that just sucks for people that nudge the envelope rather than push it.

[michaels]

Effective January 1, 2007, rule D is revised to:

D. Any barrel other than an unaltered factory barrel or an unaltered factory replacement barrel made by the revolver’s manufacturer.

Alterations to the barrel other than what is required to safely install the barrel are not permitted in Limited Division. (Revised 2/16/06)

Now where does that leave people who have purchased a "new" limited run gun from S&W dealers (Lou Horton for example). Lots of Horton guns have had one off type barrels, from the factory. But you are unable to get an exact replacement barrel from S&W should you need to. I know that if I sent a 4 inch 610 back to S&W and asked for a 5 inch barrel, they will take a longer barrel if such exists, and cut it and install it for a price. Then does it not become a factory barrel? I've had barrel changes done and I've seen some really odd barreled guns, that came from the factory, but you won't find them listed anywhere in catalogs because the production run was special ordered. This could be a rule that will have some holes in it down the road.

michaels

[AzShooter]

John

I've seen some amazing guns over the years. If they had iron sights and no ports I really didn't think much about them.

This year some shooters mentioned seeing barrels that have been lightened, sculptured or shortened to lengths that have never been offered.

Two rule proposals were submitted to ICORE for this particular situation and the rule that goes into effect in January is the one that was selected.

I won't mention names because I have no idea who the people were talking about. The rule had read that the barrel must be on the manufacturer's list and the problem was finding a list of all the barrels the manufacturer made.

I just installed a 6 inch barrel on my 627. It's listed on Smith & Wesson's site as a stock replacement barrel. Right under it they mention a 6.5" barrel ( try to find one). And the first match I went to someone on the BOD challenged my gun. It fits the old rule and the new rule but I put a printout of the page from Smith & Wesson in my shooting bag just to prove it is a factory replacement.

Michael:

If in your case Smith & Wesson took a 5 inch barrel, cut it to 4 inches and put a sight on it I think that fits into the new rule. The problem really would be if you took a 5 inch barrel, cut it to 4 inches, sculptured it so that it was lighter then the original or did other modifications that would not be the same as a stock barrel.

An example would be to take a 686 barrel and drill holes through the underlug to lighten the barrel. That's no longer stock and is not considered limited because it's not just a standard replacement barrel.

I hope I've explained some or the reasons for the rule modification.

Edited May 10, 2006 by AzShooter

[10mmdave]

Everytime I hear the phrase "equipment race" I wanna PUKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Come on Dave......tell us how you realy feel

And just to clarify, I didn't post the new rule change to start any arguments, just for info

purposes in case anyone was building a "stock" gun for both USPSA and ICORE I thought

they should know that things are a tad different.

I love the ICORE game and will continue to play, as I've stated before us wheelie folks are

the most fun to be around and we lookout for each other's moonclip's.

IMO the ICORE board is trying to keep "Stock" or "Limited" just as it was intended, you walk

out of Ed's Gun Shop with a brand new revo and your in the game, maybe a new set of sights,

grips, and at the most converted to moonclips and your good to go.

As far as Michaels post, I would have to believe that any barrel that came from S&W or Ruger

or Taurus, special or not, would make the rules. I think maybe a ruling on a barrel cut down to

a factory offered length might be in order, what happens if you bulge a 5 inch 610 barrel ??

The rule doesn't go into effect until 2007, if you are an ICORE member you can always submit

an addendum or correction. http://www.icore.org/RuleChange.html

And Dave.....it could be worse......they could have talked about moonclip conversions too !!

[Carmoney]

I just installed a 6 inch barrel on my 627. It's listed on Smith & Wesson's site as a stock replacement barrel. Right under it they mention a 6.5" barrel ( try to find one). And the first match I went to someone on the BOD challenged my gun.

Uh-oh. This is a long, dark road that you guys really don't want to start down.

This is exactly the mentality that harmed IDPA's revolver participation so dramatically, and threatens to have the same impact on USPSA's Production division.

I suppose there are always going to be shooters out there who will need to scapegoat their own poor performance by pointing out perceived advantages in other shooters' equipment.

But "special" revolver barrels? Please--who cares. I remember so vividly from my pin-shooting days how some of the wheelgunners tried every sort of special custom barrel possible--slabs, comps, ports, underlugs, etc. And yet several of us discovered that plain old stock unmodified factory barrels worked just as well, if not better!

I'm not really an ICORE guy (I would be, but we don't have any matches in my area), but I can't really imagine what kind of barrel modifications are making these people all upset. "Sculpting"? Who cares--it's cosmetic, people. Shortening? Lengthening? C'mon. Even ports--does anybody really believe porting would have any impact on 125 p.f. floofer loads? Hell, porting doesn't even work with pin loads for chrissakes.

Quit the bickering and just shoot. The same guys are going to win anyway. Make the rules simple to interpret, simple to follow, and don't piss off a bunch of your core contingency by making their guns illegal.

Or so it seems to me.

[D.carden]

Good post Mike.......

My opinion IS this.....................

Open guns = electronic sights, barrels with ports and comps. All the other mods are the same as limited ( trigger, hammer, etc).

Limited= any barrel, of any length, of any manufacturer, non-ported, non-comp, iron sights of some sort.

I dont believe the barrel should be an issue in limited. We all make our special mod's else where on the gun so why not the barrel (BTW, I use the stock 627 barrel it came with).

If a restriction is put on the barrel, then what about the other mod's......Ty cylinders, Randy Lee hammer and trigger work, cylinder releases, grips, sights.............you get the picture.

Your skill will make the biggest difference in your results.......NOT your equipment......

The "Limited" division is just that....Limited............Not "Restricted" division. I like my gun just the way it is, a stock PC-627. I have no problem with anyone using any barrel i've described above if you think it'll help your game........ But, if i want a custom non-ported, non comp barrel, I have that option as would everyone.........

See ya at the range......

Edited May 10, 2006 by D.carden

[pskys2]

Sounds kind of like growing pains. It remains to be seen if ICORE can weather the inevitable.

Hmmmm, can anyone say Production.

But, when you combine competition and valuable prizes (firearms) it can bring out the devil in people.

Edited May 10, 2006 by pskys2

[Carmoney]

Open guns = electronic sights, barrels with ports and comps. All the other mods are the same as limited ( trigger, hammer, etc).

Limited= any barrel, of any length, of any manufacturer, non-ported, non-comp, iron sights of some sort.

Perfect.

Any other equipment issues are purely in people's minds.

(I too would shoot my plain ol' 627 with unmodified factory barrel.)

[AzShooter]

One nice thing about ICORE is that there is a rule proposal section in the back of every rule book and on the web site. If anyone doesn't like a rule they are most welcome to fill out the proposal completely and send it to the Rules Coordinator for review by the BOD.

The new rule won't have any effect on this year's IRC and if people want it changed before the new rule goes into effect I suggest they submit a new proposal.

After all, it's up to the shooters to present what they want to the BOD and if they don't like the current rules they should change them.

[Randy Lee]

I have to agree with Dan and Mike on this.

The neat thing about ICORE is that at least at the IRC, there is usually a good mix of Steel Challenge, Accuracy and Run N' Gun stages. I think this is where things begin to balance out as far as barrels go.

A shortened barrel may swing faster, but the reduced sight radius may hurt you on the X count stages.

A Ti cylindered 627 with a M-27 6.5" barrel will give you a better sight radius and transition, but you have to deal with more muzzle flip.

An 8 3/8" barrel can really help on the Far and Near but on stages with confined space due to walls and such may be challenging.

A heavy barrel will dampen flip, but can affect your draw times and overswing on steel stages.

I believe it all washes out in the end. As others have stated, it's really the operator that makes the difference.

That being said, if a particular barrel weight/length/configuration makes the shooter feel more confident and increases their enjoyment of our sport, it's a good thing.

I've noticed for a while that there has been a frenzied search for 6.5" stock 627PC barrels.

Since Smith doesn't offer them, there seems to be a rift between the have's and have nots.

Allowing whatever barrel make/length/profile the shooter desires simply allows us more freedom to shoot what we like. It doesn't by itself make us better shooters.

[Carmoney]

Good post, Randy.

[1911 rookie]

I guess this means I'll have to stop looking for that magic barrel setup that will move me up 90 places at the IRC.

Jason

[J.Bagakis]

I have to agree with Dan and Mike on this.

The neat thing about ICORE is that at least at the IRC, there is usually a good mix of Steel Challenge, Accuracy and Run N' Gun stages. I think this is where things begin to balance out as far as barrels go.

A shortened barrel may swing faster, but the reduced sight radius may hurt you on the X count stages.

A Ti cylindered 627 with a M-27 6.5" barrel will give you a better sight radius and transition, but you have to deal with more muzzle flip.

An 8 3/8" barrel can really help on the Far and Near but on stages with confined space due to walls and such may be challenging.

A heavy barrel will dampen flip, but can affect your draw times and overswing on steel stages.

I believe it all washes out in the end. As others have stated, it's really the operator that makes the difference.

That being said, if a particular barrel weight/length/configuration makes the shooter feel more confident and increases their enjoyment of our sport, it's a good thing.

I've noticed for a while that there has been a frenzied search for 6.5" stock 627PC barrels.

Since Smith doesn't offer them, there seems to be a rift between the have's and have nots.

Allowing whatever barrel make/length/profile the shooter desires simply allows us more freedom to shoot what we like. It doesn't by itself make us better shooters.

I have to agree with Dan, Mike and Randy.

I feel in the long run it comes down to the shooter.

I guess I will put in for a rule change and see what happens.

To me Limited is Iron sights and no porting, Open is anything goes.

I feel all these rules are going to hurt ICORE and make it to hard for a new or cross over shooter to start shooting ICORE.

WE NEED TO GET ICORE TO GROW, NOT DIE OUT BECAUSE OF TOO MANY RULES!

If the die hard rules people want they should push for a production class, so they can tie a bunch of rules to the shooters there.

My thoughts!

John

[Bubber]

I feel all these rules are going to hurt ICORE and make it to hard for a new or cross over shooter to start shooting ICORE.

WE NEED TO GET ICORE TO GROW, NOT DIE OUT BECAUSE OF TOO MANY RULES!

My thoughts!

John

Not knowing the extent of the "problem" with shooters changing barrels types and designs I agree with the group of John, Randy, Dan and Mike. However I am not a Stock/ Limited gun shooter. The allowed mods is what changed the term from Stock to Limited. the new rule will be a bear to enforce because of the various configurations offered at one time on the revolvers, not only S&W, But the Python (ribbed Sight from the factory) the Taraus 689 also with a ribbed sight. I hope that ICORE can grow through the interchange of ideas and the Board will always be acessable as they are now with the rule change format. rdd

[Waltermitty]

I don't understand the nit-picking on equipment that's going on right now in any of the shooting games. There's more divisions, classes and sub-divisions than you can shake a stick at, yet we still get all this caterwauling that so-in-so has a (fill-in-the-blank) gun and that's not fair WAAAA!

Goodness! Is there any sport of any kind where the players *don't* fiddle with their equipment? My barrel(s) is(are) stone-stock right this minute, so this particular issue won't effect me, but if the whiners get by with this one, they'll be back for my "non-stock" hammers and trigger pull next go 'round.

Besides, I might want to fiddle with my barrel if I get tired of trying to get down to Randy's 4.5lb standard trigger pull. A man's gotta have a hobby...

I don't think it's an issue for new shooters, and I don't think it's an issue for the folks winning all the matches, I think all this equipment brouhaha is coming from those guys that are stuck in some classification they think they should have passed a long time ago and they can't accept that the problem is them, and not that some guys barrel is longer/shorter/lighter/heavier/different than theirs.

That's the ticket, the fellow beating me at bowling has a ball with a special unobtainium finish or non-standard diameter finger holes.

Give me a break!

[D.carden]

Good post Ken........

A beer at pool side for you in Topeka............

[AzShooter]

Beer at the pool side. Now that's sounding like the first IRC. The most fun one. Things were so simple then.

The motel manager wanted to throw us all out, fortunately we all checked out early Sunday.

ICORE is still young and growing. We went from having a class for every gun you could think of. I mean snubby, snubby with a scope, five shooter,etc and a gun went to every one of the classes.

Now it's simpler. Special recognition categories for plaques and then Limited and Open.

I think like every other organization we are trying to cover too many bases with the rules. If we could keep it simple and make people happy it would be better.

Someone send in a rule proposal that says simply. Open =Scope/Glass

Limited = Iron sights and see how it flies.

Why do we even have to explain you can have a tfigger job. I mean everyone does that to a gun. Do we need to say cylinders can be chamfered?

What might be best is for someone to take a poll at this year's IRC and get the feeling of the membership. Bring it up at the annual meeting which hardly anyone ever spends the time going to. Then present it to the board by the rule proposal form and have some facts to get your side of the equation voted on.

I won't be at the IRC this year and am not running for rules coordinator again so someone else will have to do it but I hope someone makes the effort.