Match Ammo

[Punkin Chunker]

. . . If the shooter is dishonest, then the range official has just been complicit in the cheating of the shooter in question and has possibly harmed the other shooters who are obeying the rules.

. . . If we are going to trust the shooter to tell the truth why don't we just ask him if he meets power factor and not have the freaking chrono to begin with?

We do the Reagan thing; "Trust and verify."

For this to work, match officials may ask for rounds being used by the competitor. Being used has to mean those being carried by the competitor. Any other definition of the term use requires us to either only use those rounds actually being fired by the shooter which would mean stopping a competitor during the course of fire and taking rounds from him or brings us back to having absolute trust in the shooter which negates the need for the chrono.

If you have it in your possession you are using it. You may be using it to be a gentleman or just for weight training but you do have the use of it and it is available for the chrono.

Wow. Extending the logic of taking the shooters' words on which ammo they are actually using, to just taking their word for the PF. After all, we DO trust shooters, don't we?

I really liked the common sense here. Why even chrono, if everyone's trustworthy? Just to catch the few who honestly goof and unintentionally load sub-PF rounds?

Getting into a such a snit over this, even to the point of connecting match officials to the TSA, and threatening boycotting a match -- man, the economy must have everyone wound a little tight.

Just because I lock my front door doesn't mean I don't trust my neighbors. Just because a match official draws a line and clearly posts that any ammo that crosses the line is deemed to be "in use" doesn't mean the official thinks the majority of shooters aren't trustworthy. It seems that someone who is vocal against "gray areas" would appreciate a clearly delineated line.

[jhgtyre]

No one is saying use only means the rounds being fired except for those who are arguing that it is absurd to define use so narrowly. "Use," in our sport, is very easy to recognize. If a competitor has the ammo in his/her mags or states that they are "using" the ammo then it is in use. Otherwise it is merely in possession. There is no rule for ammo that is possessed.

-ld

[EkuJustice]

If someone wants to cheat they are going to cheat. The fair way is to go from the mags at random. If hes using that ammo on his belt he has every intention of using it in the gun. The rules arnt there to penalize someone for sharing a range bag with a wife or someone else. In that case the chance of you drawing major ammo is 50% for both of them even if one is shooting minor is a 50 50. If someone really wanted to cheat who is to say which range bag their ammo comes from. They could just as easily have their bag full of 40 major and let you draw away from their bag and really get their ammo from their buddys bag who is shooting 40 minor. Going from the belt avoids this. How are you going to say your not going to use it when its on your belt ready to go

[Singlestack]

How do I know some Match Director is not gonna come by while I'm away from my bag and slip a box of ammo in and then ask to chrono it?

[racerba]

If I really wanted to cheat, you could grab all the ammo out of my bag if you want, you won't catch me. Now, if I am cheating, wouldn't the most likely way to catch me is to chrono the rounds that are in the mag that is in my gun?

[jhgtyre]

If I really wanted to cheat, you could grab all the ammo out of my bag if you want, you won't catch me. Now, if I am cheating, wouldn't the most likely way to catch me is to chrono the rounds that are in the mag that is in my gun?

But what if you KNEW that I might do that and put all your cheatin' ammo in the bottom of the mag?!?!!? What then huh?!?!? We have to be able to take every round within a 15' radius of you and chrono it to make sure you aren't cheating!

-ld

[LPatterson]

This has gotten so ridiculous that it is into the funny farm realm. Rules only apply to honest people which is why some people are called criminals and/or cheats and/or gamers. There is a thing called a speed limit that is a rule that I am wiling to bet that every one has broken at one time or another. Does that make me a criminal, only if I get caught.

[Flexmoney]

How on Earth do you come off with thinking that YOU get to "delineate" the rules? Match officials aren't the rule makers. That isn't our game. That isn't USPSA. We have a rule book.

What make one person think that they trump the rule book? How do they know better than the rule book?

Might I suggest match officials are required to implement the rules in the rule book?

You might. I've been suggesting that very thing all along.

Others want to call their own shots, as they see fit.

I think we agree on this. If so, the range official must read the rules.

Read the rules? I think I like that concept.

Then, and here's the catch, the range official must interpret what he reads. The range official's comprehension of those rules are what he enforces.

Too bad that is not what we get. We get...not a call based on the words. What we do get...more and more often...is a call based on 'word of mouth'...which we would then expect to be stored away in that perfect memory that we all have.

Come on guys. I know everybody here sees a difference between "possession" and "use". The rules says one, and not the other.

The only way to make the leap is to assume intent. It's fine if that's your thing, but your playing the wrong game if it is.

[Ming the Merciless]

No offense to the great majority of shooters in USPSA but I have seen few guys chrono major and shoot the match with a gun with no muzzle flip. Most recently at this year's National.

It is even worse at local matches. I was shooting at club, not in my home state, where the guy was shooting "major" .45. His gun had no muzzle flip. And it was not because of his awesome grip. I mentioned to one of the club members and he gave me that look of "yeah we know he is shooting minor but he is a senior member of the club."

I would not mind at the Area or National matches if they just sent someone around to pick up the chrono rounds during the match. A2 has employed various and interesting ways of getting chrono rounds. If they can do it, so can everyone else.

At a local match last year we had one of those guys you speak of shooting "major" .45 with zero muzzle flip. After the match I had set up my chrono to check some loads and the same shooter asked if I could chrono a few rounds for him. I thought that should be interesting, so he pulled a couple of the partially loaded mags that he had stuffed into his hip pocket after shooting the last stage and handed me his .45. I loaded up and fired the first round, 178pf. The 3 round average was 179pf. Oh yeah, I had plenty of muzzle flip so I let him shoot the next mag over the chrono, yup you guessed almost zero muzzle flip at 178-179pf!

So it's possible the guys you're complaining about DO have an awesome grip.

[jhgtyre]

No offense to the great majority of shooters in USPSA but I have seen few guys chrono major and shoot the match with a gun with no muzzle flip. Most recently at this year's National.

It is even worse at local matches. I was shooting at club, not in my home state, where the guy was shooting "major" .45. His gun had no muzzle flip. And it was not because of his awesome grip. I mentioned to one of the club members and he gave me that look of "yeah we know he is shooting minor but he is a senior member of the club."

I would not mind at the Area or National matches if they just sent someone around to pick up the chrono rounds during the match. A2 has employed various and interesting ways of getting chrono rounds. If they can do it, so can everyone else.

At a local match last year we had one of those guys you speak of shooting "major" .45 with zero muzzle flip. After the match I had set up my chrono to check some loads and the same shooter asked if I could chrono a few rounds for him. I thought that should be interesting, so he pulled a couple of the partially loaded mags that he had stuffed into his hip pocket after shooting the last stage and handed me his .45. I loaded up and fired the first round, 178pf. The 3 round average was 179pf. Oh yeah, I had plenty of muzzle flip so I let him shoot the next mag over the chrono, yup you guessed almost zero muzzle flip at 178-179pf!

So it's possible the guys you're complaining about DO have an awesome grip.

I had RO's at the IRC (International Revolver Championship) complaining that "No way does that make power factor" WHILE I WAS shooting a stage! Now I am not a guy that people have to fear when the final scores are totaled so I was a little annoyed and a lot amused by their whining. When I checked in for my scheduled chono run I came in well over the paltry little power factor they have in ICORE. So you never know. That guy shooting the mouse fart loads may have a good grip, a better load or even a properly setup gun that just doesn't jump around all that much.

-ld

[sperman]

Come on guys. I know everybody here sees a difference between "possession" and "use". The rules says one, and not the other.

I think this is at the root of the disagreement. "Use" is not clearly defined in the rulebook, and is interpreted differently by different people.

I really regret asking (what I thought) was a simple question in another thread, and re-igniting this issue.

[Flexmoney]

Come on guys. I know everybody here sees a difference between "possession" and "use". The rules says one, and not the other.

I think this is at the root of the disagreement. "Use" is not clearly defined in the rulebook, and is interpreted differently by different people.

I really regret asking (what I thought) was a simple question in another thread, and re-igniting this issue.

Please don't regret asking.

I've just been trying to push the point that we need to...first...read the rule, before we give an opinion/call.

[AZ38super]

I can't believe how much this is going back and forth.

I know this is not the point some of you are trying to make but the point is this.

If it is with you, on body or in range bag while out on the range then it could possibly be used in a COF and subject to test.

If you have no intention on using it then take 10 seconds and leave it in the car, problem gone.

[Chills1994]

I'm still kinda new to USPSA and I really haven't shot that many major matches.

I think this thread is making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Given that I have been through an RO class and have "clipboard commando'ed" a major match, I was kinda shocked when I shot my first major match (prior to becoming an RO and a CC) and the first stage of the day the RO goes:

Okay, fork 'em over.

As he handed out the little baggies. Up to that point, I was kinda under the impression that the USPSA competitor was NOT given any benefit of the doubt. If there were any hiccups along the way, the shooter was basically guilty until he could prove otherwise and it could very well end up costing him $100 to try to prove his "innocence".

Another poster some pages back already brought up random drug testing on the job.

So this is my idea:

Just randomly during a major match the scorekeeper picks up the ejected magazines from a random shooter as he navigates a CoF. The scorekeeper then shucks out the 8 rounds from the recovered mags and puts them in a baggie. After the "if clear, hammer down, holster!" command, the scorekeeper goes up to the shooter and says, "I need another label from you," as he holds up the baggie and hands back the mags. The baggie gets labeled. The shooter initials the scoresheet.

And then the scorekeeper or the RO takes a red sharpie marker or an ink stamp and then stamps the shooter's strong hand.

The squad leaves that stage. The other RO's and scorekeepers keep an eye out for the "mark" on the back of the shooter's strong hand when they are giving the "make ready" command, and with a covert nod and a wink, the RO and the scorekeeper have just selected the next random shooter on their stage to select ammo from.

And if you're the MD or RM of that major match, just let the word out that it is possible for any one shooter to get his ammo randomly selected two or 3 times during the match, and whatever 8 rounds will get picked at random from the 16 or 24 that were picked earlier in the day when the shooter eventually makes it to the chrono stage.

Again, I don't think it's that big of an issue.

We're making a mountain out of a mole hill here, folks.

Switching gears here just a bit.... what if I was a woman shooter and had my "womanly" toiletry items in my range bag? I don't want some stranger RO or MD digging through my range bag looking for ammo. Or what if I had some medications in there for an embarassing condition?? Or what if I had some boring and routine condition that I had to take meds for, I don't want an RO grabbing a pill bottom out of my bag for all the world to see and him looking at me with that, "What the heck are these for?" look on his face. Your squadmates have NO business learning of your private/personal medical issues.

Ya know, if were gonna start rummaging through shooter's bags, then we might as well start doing frisk's and pat down's too, to make sure the USPSA'er ain't carrying his CCW piece in an ankle holster... or wherever??

referencing this thread: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...3&hl=second

[shred]

"Use" is consistently used in the rulebook:

We all agree that a shooter may carry as many unloaded pistols around in their range bag as they like, correct?

So...

5.1.7 Competitors must use the same handgun and type of sights for all

courses of fire in a match. However, in the event that a competitor’s

original handgun and/or sights become unserviceable or unsafe during

a match, the competitor must, before using a substitute handgun and/or

sights, seek permission from the Range Master who may approve the

substitution provided he is satisfied:

5.1.7.1 The substitute handgun satisfies the requirements of the relevant

Division.

5.1.7.2 In using the substitute handgun the competitor will not gain a

competitive advantage.

...

5.1.9 A competitor must never use or wear more than one handgun during a

course of fire (see Rule 10.5.7).

Let's look at two more rules:

5.1.9 A competitor must never use or wear more than one handgun during a

course of fire (see Rule 10.5.7).

5.1.10 Handguns with shoulder stocks and/or fore grips of any kind are prohibited.

5.1.11 Handguns offering “burst” and/or fully automatic operation are prohibited.

Notice how 5.1.10 and 5.1.11 don't use the word 'use' because they cover being at the match period.

Here's another:

5.3.1 The use of offensive or objectionable garments is not allowed. The

Match Director will have final authority in respect of what garments

competitors are allowed to wear.

so I can't even carry an 'offensive' t-shirt packed away in my bag, cause that would be 'using' it??? I don't think so.

The word 'use' doesn't have two wildly different meanings within the same freeking section of the rulebook, despite what some people wish.

[Barrettone]

29. It is recommended that ammunition be collected from competitors as randomly

as is possible to insure that the collected ammunition accurately

matches the ammunition the competitor is actually using in competition.

OK Kyle, one more round...ding, ding.

Using your concept of rigidly applying the rules strictly as written in black and white in the rulebook:

A guy is shooting a limited gun (that holds 21 rounds in his 140mm magazine) on an eight round stage. He fires his 8 rounds, finishes the stage and unloads and shows clear. RO suspects that that the ammo is underpowered, and requests eight leftover rounds from the mag he was using. However, the competitor says "Not so fast...I didn't USE those rounds, and I did not have any intent of using rounds 9-21 on that stage as it was only an eight round stage."

Now remember, we have to read the words as written. In section #29 quoted above, the wording is black and white. We need to only use the rules EXACTLY AS WRITTEN and apply no "common sense"...right? Well, under those conditions, we can then only test already USED rounds. Tell me how you are going to chrono a round that has already gone downrange. Bottom line is, that if a guy has say 50 rounds on his belt for a 200 round match, there is OBVIOUSLY at least another 150 in his bag THAT HE INTENDS TO USE!!! It is therefore subject to chrono. I don't have to follow him around all day like a puppy to get the ones I want. You bring it to the match, then you intend to use it. You either go to intent or the rule is non-existent. It is rather hypocritical for you to define that "intended for use" only covers loaded mags on the belt, but then say it does not extend to the other ammo you are GOING TO USE in the bag. Unless the competitor is putting all 200 on their belt in the beginning of the match, then your argument doesn't hold water. So...who you are YOU to determine when and where ammo intended for USE can come from. Quote me a rule that says sample rounds for chrono can only come from the belt. That pendulum swings both ways my friend.

Back atchya...

[jhgtyre]

Using your concept of rigidly applying the rules strictly as written in black and white in the rulebook:

A guy is shooting a limited gun (that holds 21 rounds in his 140mm magazine) on an eight round stage. He fires his 8 rounds, finishes the stage and unloads and shows clear. RO suspects that that the ammo is underpowered, and requests eight leftover rounds from the mag he was using. However, the competitor says "Not so fast...I didn't USE those rounds, and I did not have any intent of using rounds 9-21 on that stage as it was only an eight round stage."

.......

Back atchya...

The rounds were used. They were used to push the rounds at the top of the mag onto the feed ramp so that the returning slide could push them into the chamber.

-ld

[Barrettone]

Using your concept of rigidly applying the rules strictly as written in black and white in the rulebook:

A guy is shooting a limited gun (that holds 21 rounds in his 140mm magazine) on an eight round stage. He fires his 8 rounds, finishes the stage and unloads and shows clear. RO suspects that that the ammo is underpowered, and requests eight leftover rounds from the mag he was using. However, the competitor says "Not so fast...I didn't USE those rounds, and I did not have any intent of using rounds 9-21 on that stage as it was only an eight round stage."

.......

Back atchya...

The rounds were used. They were used to push the rounds at the top of the mag onto the feed ramp so that the returning slide could push them into the chamber.

-ld

What if rounds 9-21 were snap caps? Remember, we consider them to be ammo for safety reasons. Do we get to apply common sense there, or do we chrono the snap caps (according to you, they were USED). We can dance all day if you want to...I've got a million of 'em. QUOTE THE RULE...QUOTE THE RULE!!!

-jl

Edited October 10, 2008 by Barrettone

[JThompson]

Someone close this thing already

[jhgtyre]

Using your concept of rigidly applying the rules strictly as written in black and white in the rulebook:

A guy is shooting a limited gun (that holds 21 rounds in his 140mm magazine) on an eight round stage. He fires his 8 rounds, finishes the stage and unloads and shows clear. RO suspects that that the ammo is underpowered, and requests eight leftover rounds from the mag he was using. However, the competitor says "Not so fast...I didn't USE those rounds, and I did not have any intent of using rounds 9-21 on that stage as it was only an eight round stage."

.......

Back atchya...

The rounds were used. They were used to push the rounds at the top of the mag onto the feed ramp so that the returning slide could push them into the chamber.

-ld

What if rounds 9-21 were snap caps? Remember, we consider them to be ammo for safety reasons. Do we get to apply common sense there, or do we chrono the snap caps (according to you, they were USED). We can dance all day if you want to...I've got a million of 'em. QUOTE THE RULE...QUOTE THE RULE!!!

-jl

That is fine by me. Your snap caps will have a 0 powerfactor so put em in and I will glady submit them for chrono. Are you shooting Area 2? Gee I wish I knew who was working chrono for Area 2.....

-ld

[Chills1994]

Anyone else here getting a chuckle out of this thread?

[Barrettone]

Using your concept of rigidly applying the rules strictly as written in black and white in the rulebook:

A guy is shooting a limited gun (that holds 21 rounds in his 140mm magazine) on an eight round stage. He fires his 8 rounds, finishes the stage and unloads and shows clear. RO suspects that that the ammo is underpowered, and requests eight leftover rounds from the mag he was using. However, the competitor says "Not so fast...I didn't USE those rounds, and I did not have any intent of using rounds 9-21 on that stage as it was only an eight round stage."

.......

Back atchya...

The rounds were used. They were used to push the rounds at the top of the mag onto the feed ramp so that the returning slide could push them into the chamber.

-ld

What if rounds 9-21 were snap caps? Remember, we consider them to be ammo for safety reasons. Do we get to apply common sense there, or do we chrono the snap caps (according to you, they were USED). We can dance all day if you want to...I've got a million of 'em. QUOTE THE RULE...QUOTE THE RULE!!!

-jl

That is fine by me. Your snap caps will have a 0 powerfactor so put em in and I will glady submit them for chrono. Are you shooting Area 2? Gee I wish I knew who was working chrono for Area 2.....

-ld

Whoa there pilgrim!!! We might have to declare those snap caps as "unsafe ammo" as an RO might mistake them for a squib...naw...that would be applying common sense.

Still Dancin'

Remember ld...stick and move...stick and move. I can't believe this damn thing isn't CLOSED yet!

Edited October 10, 2008 by Barrettone

[Flexmoney]

Jeff,

Please...use all the common sense you can muster. Just endeavor to first read what the applicable rules say.

[Punkin Chunker]

No one is saying use only means the rounds being fired except for those who are arguing that it is absurd to define use so narrowly. "Use," in our sport, is very easy to recognize. If a competitor has the ammo in his/her mags or states that they are "using" the ammo then it is in use. Otherwise it is merely in possession. There is no rule for ammo that is possessed.

-ld

Uh, actually, there IS a rule for that. And a precedent for testing ammo out of the bag . . .

Take a look at 5.1.7.4 (dealing with substituting handguns):

If the original handgun/ammunition was not previously tested, and if the original handgun has already been used on a stage, and can be safely fired (i.e. the malfunction is not related to an inability to safely fire the handgun), then the original handgun and its ammunition supply remain subject to testing.

Some might say that if the substitute handgun is never used, then the ammunition is not subject to testing, even though it's in the bag. But if the competitor does not use the substitute handgun, then he or she has no intent to use that ammunition. If the substitute handgun does come out, then the ammunition is subject to testing.

Say a competitor's original handgun was of a different caliber (say, minor PF out of a 38 Super), and the competitor switches to 9mm. The original ammo, rolling around in the bottom of the range bag, arguably not to be used for any further stages, is still subject to testing.

Appendix C2.28 - The Match Director chooses the time and place for collecting the ammunition. While some people are extending this idea to the extreme (so far, no one has suggested a cavity search, but given the direction this thread is heading in . . . ). But if it's in the bag, it's available and intended.

Edited October 10, 2008 by Punkin Chunker

[LPatterson]

29. It is recommended that ammunition be collected from competitors as randomly

as is possible to insure that the collected ammunition accurately

matches the ammunition the competitor is actually using in competition.

You didn't bother to bold the section of the rule that says "It is recommended that ammunition be collected as randomly as possible...."

Since the sentence starts with recommended which is not in the glossary, my Websters list two different meanings for the word USE depending on it being a verb or a noun, which meaning is the BOD implying here. The words MUST and WILL are included as MANDATORY items but they did not feel that recommended needed to be explained. When a whole sentance is not taken in its entirety politicians like to claim it was taken out of context, which is what I think you have done.

I never finished high school so I love it when people explain what words mean and how to USE (that was a verb, right?) them.

Added forgotten punctuation and corrected some spelling.

Edited October 10, 2008 by LPatterson