Match Ammo

[AikiDale]

I don't want anyone else's fingerprints on my Nature Valley Bars either. The shooter should be responsible for opening the bag and retrieving the rounds asked for. Taking mags from the belt is my preferred method. I'm just advocating anything the shooter carries at the match is in use and meets the rule.

While I agree with that if I bring the missus and she wants to shoot 40 minor and I'm shooting .40 major but I carry everything in my bag to be the gentleman, does that mean that I'm required to declare minor?

Okay, let's get this straight. Golfers carry their own gear and so do shooters! You start carrying your wife's gear to be a 'gentleman' and by the end of the match you are going to be more tired, slower and less accurate than the guy who only carries his own stuff. Now would any lady worth marrying really want you to lose the match so you can be a male chauvinist pig??? I think not!

[Flexmoney]

I don't think "well this is the way I always do it" is good enough for an exception to a fair rule which has to apply to all in a competitive situation.

It's not an exception.

READ the rule.

Recognize the difference between "use" and "possession".

[wide45]

If you take ammo from the bag, to use in the match, are you not using ammo from the bag?

If there is more than one box of ammo in the bag, is it different for the RO to point to one box, and ask for ammo from that one, or point to a mag on your belt?

[rvb]

I wore an old jacket to a match that I hadn't worn in at least a year or more. I put my hand in the pocket at one point and found a whole handfull of ammo. mixed cals. none appeared to be ammo I had loaded. I'm guessing from picking up live rounds when ro'ing. major? minor? who knows. I sure wasn't shooting any of it through MY production gun.

Are you all seriously saying that any of the 9mm in that pocket was "match ammo?" You got to be joking. 5.5.4 says your joking as I sure as heck wasn't using that ammo.

As long as we are making up rules, why stop at the range bag? Doesn't that slippery slope lead you to my truck where I could just as easily stash ammo? Should we subcontract the TSA to come screen for extra ammo on our person or "carry on luggage?"

-rvb

[Fireant]

It is not fair that a shooter who neglects to sanitize his bag gets hauled into the back room for a good talking to and perhaps arrest at the airport because he has lost rounds in his carry on bag either but it does make one more attentive I hear.

Man, just when the memory was fading I stumble on this. Funny.

[sci]

When my wife, my daughter and I go to a match we use a cart (stroller) that has room for one range bag. We all put our ammo in the range bag. I shoot .45 in a revolver. My wife shoots 9mm minor (hopefully) in her revolver. And our daughter shoots 9mm major in her open gun.

We keep the ammo in separate boxes and all of it is in one range bag on the cart. We're capable of telling the difference, but I'm not sure that an RO is. We load FMJ round nose for the revo, hollow points for the open. I feel that ammo in use would be ammo on the competitor's person and that all ammo on the competitor's person at any time should be available for chrono. There's not need to go demanding ammo from a range bag. If it's not on your person at some point, there's no way you're going to use it in the match.

Steve

[sperman]

Would it be out of line for the RO to ask the shooter to present all ammo he intends to use during the match. Once the ammo is out of the bag and displayed for the RO, he (the RO) could say, "Give me 8 rounds from this box." That would eliminate the invasion of privacy issue, and still generate a little bit of randomness.

[SA Friday]

I don't care what you do or how you do it, the chrono is nothing more than a 'door lock'. It keeps honest people honest. Dishonest people will get away with cheating and stealing till armageddon.

Hand them the bag on stage one. 8 rounds from either mag or their bag, chrono the ammo later. Done. You think someone is cheating, call them on it if you are sure enough. If not, go shoot your game.

[AikiDale]

I don't think "well this is the way I always do it" is good enough for an exception to a fair rule which has to apply to all in a competitive situation.

It's not an exception.

READ the rule.

Recognize the difference between "use" and "possession".

Oh, I can not only READ the rule, I can interpret it....many ways.

Let's change sports for a moment. Suppose you attend THE University of Ohio. Suppose you play football. Suppose Ohio is in possession of the ball. Further suppose you are an Offensive Lineman. At the snap, are you in possession of the ball? Are you using the ball? Your team is in possession. Is the ball of any use to you? The line holds, the QB throws to the WR on the sidelines. He is juggling the ball. Does he have possession before he goes out of bounds? Is he using the ball?

There is, in the context of our sport, an intricate interplay between the concept of possessing and using ammunition. Why did you carry it onto the field of play if it were not available for your use? Can you make use of it? Please do not tell me you expect the Range Official to have prior knowledge of your intent.

If two shooters share range equipment including ammunition of differing power factors as often happens (I know, Mary and I do the same) and there is a chrono stage, they risk the major power factor shooter going minor. The RO at the chrono is not required to know if you are honest. He is required to take which ever cartridges he may randomly select from those available for your use which are in your possession.

As a practical matter this just is not a problem. At a major match, if there is money at stake or if you have po'ed anyone at the chrono stage lately, the prudent shooter will not be in possession of ammunition which may be deemed available for his use.

[Clyde]

OMG - you need 8 rounds

Do you want them from my mags or my Belt

Thank you.

Next

[EkuJustice]

On what ammo is avaliable to you then why not randomly draw 8 rounds from anyones bag on the squad as you could just as easily have your ammo in there as you could your own bag. Where do you draw the line. Heck why not anyone there in attendance at the match as there is a possibility you could use some of their ammo. If the ammo is on the belt it is actually being used and has the intent of being used or it wouldnt be on there. If its in the bag it dosent really mean it is being used by the shooter who is getting credit for the ammo. Look at 3 gun matches especially. How many times do you see 2+ people and I have seen 4 + people sharing a cart with the gear in it. Does that mean they can select any round from the cart to use for any shooter thats in the cart because they may have access to it. Throw another wrench in it. I know alot of the carts have ammo holders on them to store gear etc and a range bag is not always used. Does that make the whole cart fair game to anyone who has access to it since it is basically a big range bag.

If its on the belt its fair game, if its not then its not.

[jhgtyre]

Since we seem to be discussing the meaning of the words that make up the rule and the word use has had some debate lets look specifically at that word.

From Webster's Online Dictionary

Use:

transitive verb1archaic : accustom , habituate2: to put into action or service : avail oneself of : employ3: to consume or take (as liquor or drugs) regularly4: to carry out a purpose or action by means of : utilize ; also : manipulate 2b <used him selfishly>5: to expend or consume by putting to use —often used with up

So when the rule states:

5.5.5 All ammunition used by a competitor must satisfy all the requirements

of the relevant Division as defined in Appendix D.

I don't see a provision for ammo that the competitor has available to them. I only see that definition of the word "use" that I posted above which does not include anything about intent or availability.

-ld

[Flexmoney]

As a practical matter ... the prudent shooter will not be in possession of ammunition which may be deemed available for his use.

[wide45]

So let's put this in perspective.

Nobody said that any RO has searched a competitors range bag.

Nobody with any authority, has said that it would happen.

Why the fuss?

[Barrettone]

As a practical matter ... the prudent shooter will not be in possession of ammunition which may be deemed available for his use.

OK...I've got an idea Flex (since you are SO adamant about your point). Come out to Livingston the fourth weekend in October. I'll make it a "chrono mandatory match". I'll ask you to open your bag and point to the rounds I want. Make sure they are sub-minor rounds that are the same caliber you are shooting. You can arbitrate it, I'll appoint the arb committee. We'll send the ruling to NROI (Amidon), and then you can have your precedent (and subsequent OFFICIAL INTERPRETATION). Since John weighed in on this two years ago (with his email to a fellow BE'er), you'd think we'd be done going over this. But since you are on this kick lately of rulebook thumping, we can do it the hard way just for you. As others have said...it is a tool. It might NEVER be used, but it is there to keep people honest as they never know when the "tool" will be used.

YMMV

[sci]

As a practical matter ... the prudent shooter will not be in possession of ammunition which may be deemed available for his use.

OK...I've got an idea Flex (since you are SO adamant about your point). Come out to Livingston the fourth weekend in October. I'll make it a "chrono mandatory match". I'll ask you to open your bag and point to the rounds I want. Make sure they are sub-minor rounds that are the same caliber you are shooting. You can arbitrate it, I'll appoint the arb committee. We'll send the ruling to NROI (Amidon), and then you can have your precedent (and subsequent OFFICIAL INTERPRETATION). Since John weighed in on this two years ago (with his email to a fellow BE'er), you'd think we'd be done going over this. But since you are on this kick lately of rulebook thumping, we can do it the hard way just for you. As others have said...it is a tool. It might NEVER be used, but it is there to keep people honest as they never know when the "tool" will be used.

YMMV

Jeff if you need some subminer ammo for Kyle i have some i will sell you for a dollar

Steve

[Barrettone]

As a practical matter ... the prudent shooter will not be in possession of ammunition which may be deemed available for his use.

OK...I've got an idea Flex (since you are SO adamant about your point). Come out to Livingston the fourth weekend in October. I'll make it a "chrono mandatory match". I'll ask you to open your bag and point to the rounds I want. Make sure they are sub-minor rounds that are the same caliber you are shooting. You can arbitrate it, I'll appoint the arb committee. We'll send the ruling to NROI (Amidon), and then you can have your precedent (and subsequent OFFICIAL INTERPRETATION). Since John weighed in on this two years ago (with his email to a fellow BE'er), you'd think we'd be done going over this. But since you are on this kick lately of rulebook thumping, we can do it the hard way just for you. As others have said...it is a tool. It might NEVER be used, but it is there to keep people honest as they never know when the "tool" will be used.

YMMV

Jeff if you need some subminer ammo for Kyle i have some i will sell you for a dollar

Steve

Not just ANY DOLLAR either, I'm sure...

Nice try.

Jeff

[Flexmoney]

So let's put this in perspective.

Nobody said that any RO has searched a competitors range bag.

Nobody with any authority, has said that it would happen.

Why the fuss?

I've seen it. Nuff said. (I'm not naming names.)

[racerba]

Let's go the other way. Let's say I'm shooting PD. I have some major ammo in my bag. Can I give that to the chrono as a sample of what I have available for to me to use?

[Flexmoney]

OK...I've got an idea Flex (since you are SO adamant about your point). Come out to Livingston the fourth weekend in October. I'll make it a "chrono mandatory match". I'll ask you to open your bag and point to the rounds I want. Make sure they are sub-minor rounds that are the same caliber you are shooting. You can arbitrate it, I'll appoint the arb committee. We'll send the ruling to NROI (Amidon), and then you can have your precedent (and subsequent OFFICIAL INTERPRETATION). Since John weighed in on this two years ago (with his email to a fellow BE'er), you'd think we'd be done going over this. But since you are on this kick lately of rulebook thumping, we can do it the hard way just for you. As others have said...it is a tool. It might NEVER be used, but it is there to keep people honest as they never know when the "tool" will be used.

YMMV

1. The problem with running it up the chain of command is that the chain is learning the culture of going off what they have in their head, not reading the rule book.

You are still doing it right now. You say..."John said". I got news, John isn't always right. I can give an example from you IPSC match, if you like. I am just as guilty, as I went off what he told me...instead of looking it up . (I was RO)

2. Why would I come up there and do that? You've told me how you plan to call...not matter what the book says. And, you told me if I don't like it, to vote with my feet.

3. The proper tool, is ammo in use. If you want to keep somebody honest, pull it off their belt or from their mags they leave on the cof. How hard is that? Same goal achieved. No controversy. Rule book followed...to the letter. How can that not be the best course of action?

4. I don't have any sub-minor ammo. I do have some Major 9. It might be in my range bag right now. What happens when you pull that, I request that you don't shoot it through my Production gun, then you blow up my Production gun?

Apply the rule book, as written.

[Barrettone]

3. The proper tool, is ammo in use. If you want to keep somebody honest, pull it off their belt or from their mags they leave on the cof. How hard is that? Same goal achieved. No controversy. Rule book followed...to the letter. How can that not be the best course of action?

Horsepucky...It is not the best course of action because the shooter can stash his powder-puff loads in his bag. We do not leave it up to the competitor to hand select what HE WISHES TO GIVE US!!! Bottom line is, don't bring it into the official match area unless you plan to shoot it. It is really that simple. If you can't be responsible enough to do that, then should you really be handling a gun? If you enter the match area with it, then you can potentially USE IT. If we said it was only USED AMMO, then how in the hell are we gonna chrono already fired rounds?!?! Because according to your definition, it is only USED AMMO. This is absolutely ridiculous. I can't believe I'm actually discussing this. It's almost like discussing Clinton's definition of "is". Apparently, common sense has all but disappeared.

QUOTE THE RULE...QUOTE THE RULE!!!

[steel1212]

3. The proper tool, is ammo in use. If you want to keep somebody honest, pull it off their belt or from their mags they leave on the cof. How hard is that? Same goal achieved. No controversy. Rule book followed...to the letter. How can that not be the best course of action?

Horsepucky...It is not the best course of action because the shooter can stash his powder-puff loads in his bag. We do not leave it up to the competitor to hand select what HE WISHES TO GIVE US!!! Bottom line is, don't bring it into the official match area unless you plan to shoot it. It is really that simple. If you can't be responsible enough to do that, then should you really be handling a gun? If you enter the match area with it, then you can potentially USE IT. If we said it was only USED AMMO, then how in the hell are we gonna chrono already fired rounds?!?! Because according to your definition, it is only USED AMMO. This is absolutely ridiculous. I can't believe I'm actually discussing this. It's almost like discussing Clinton's definition of "is". Apparently, common sense has all but disappeared.

QUOTE THE RULE...QUOTE THE RULE!!!

If you go to Kyle's number 3 you didn't leave it up to the competitor to give you what he wanted, you picked it. If he doesn't know what stage his ammo is being taken on or if you have a time and a RO at every stage and take it then from the mags on their belts or off the COF will they use the "chorno" ammo or the ammo they have been cheating with. If you choose to do it on a stage with a long target and they have some poofers their gun is sighted in with and they know its coming and put the "chrono ammo" in their bag they are going to have serious trouble with the targets.

If you want to go another step. Husband and Wife shooters, one shooting minor .40 the other shooting major, both using the minor ammo from one of their's bag but the one shooting limited major has major ammo in theirs and that is the ammo you'll get?

[Flexmoney]

3. The proper tool, is ammo in use. If you want to keep somebody honest, pull it off their belt or from their mags they leave on the cof. How hard is that? Same goal achieved. No controversy. Rule book followed...to the letter. How can that not be the best course of action?

Horsepucky...It is not the best course of action because the shooter can stash his powder-puff loads in his bag. We do not leave it up to the competitor to hand select what HE WISHES TO GIVE US!!! Bottom line is, don't bring it into the official match area unless you plan to shoot it. It is really that simple. If you can't be responsible enough to do that, then should you really be handling a gun? If you enter the match area with it, then you can potentially USE IT. If we said it was only USED AMMO, then how in the hell are we gonna chrono already fired rounds?!?! Because according to your definition, it is only USED AMMO. This is absolutely ridiculous. I can't believe I'm actually discussing this. It's almost like discussing Clinton's definition of "is". Apparently, common sense has all but disappeared.

QUOTE THE RULE...QUOTE THE RULE!!!

Jeff, how can you have a problem with pulling the ammo from the shooter's belt? Or, pulling ammo from a mag dropped while the shooter is running the cof? That ammo goes along way to meet the "in use" wording that you mention as "common sense".

Ammo in the bag...car...etc... That ammo is in "possession".

Follow your own advice. If you'd like the rule to mean "in possession", then petition to have the wording of the rule changed.

Until then...read the rule.

[Fireant]

1. The problem with running it up the chain of command is that the chain is learning the culture of going off what they have in their head, not reading the rule book.

You are still doing it right now. You say..."John said". I got news, John isn't always right. I can give an example from you IPSC match, if you like. I am just as guilty, as I went off what he told me...instead of looking it up . (I was RO)

Apply the rule book, as written.

+1 here, I was trying to find a more polite way of writing this same idea, but I ended up deleting it all until I saw this.

[Nik Habicht]

3. The proper tool, is ammo in use. If you want to keep somebody honest, pull it off their belt or from their mags they leave on the cof. How hard is that? Same goal achieved. No controversy. Rule book followed...to the letter. How can that not be the best course of action?

Horsepucky...It is not the best course of action because the shooter can stash his powder-puff loads in his bag. We do not leave it up to the competitor to hand select what HE WISHES TO GIVE US!!! Bottom line is, don't bring it into the official match area unless you plan to shoot it. It is really that simple. If you can't be responsible enough to do that, then should you really be handling a gun? If you enter the match area with it, then you can potentially USE IT. If we said it was only USED AMMO, then how in the hell are we gonna chrono already fired rounds?!?! Because according to your definition, it is only USED AMMO. This is absolutely ridiculous. I can't believe I'm actually discussing this. It's almost like discussing Clinton's definition of "is". Apparently, common sense has all but disappeared.

QUOTE THE RULE...QUOTE THE RULE!!!

Jeff,

step back and take a deep breath. Do you really think that if you point to one of ten identical boxes of match ammo in my bag and ask for 8 rounds that you're going to find gamer/cheater ammo? Even you can't be that naive.....

On the other hand --- if at the start position you pull eight rounds out of a mag, or if you retrieve them from abandoned mags --- don't the odds of you actually testing ammo that would have potentially been used in the match go way up? I'm pretty confident that I can work this issue out with Gary at any match I attend ---- I have less confidence based on statements on this board about some of our other RMs. The attitude some you seem to be espousing is "Respect Mah Authority ---- or else."

Is that really the message you all want to send?

Some folks have suggested leaving other ammo in the car, as well as leaving carry guns in the car. That's a fine suggestion --- but isn't legal in every state, even in some states were carry permits are obtainable.....