Revolver Participation

[pskys2]

In looking at the entries for the Area Champs I've noticed the most Revolvers entered at one is only 8 or 9. The Area 3 only has 6 at this time. Hopefully we'll get more, last year we had 9!

Yet some of the "Other" matches are pushing 20. Like the Summer Blast, Mississippi Classic and we even have 11 at the Kansas Sectional.

Could it be a self fulfilling prophecy where the prize table is so short, nobody wants to shoot, so the prize table stays short, so nobody will shoot?

Is IPSC seen as too hard for Revolvers? I don't believe it is.

Is it just seen as more fun with an Auto? I guess nothing can be done about a perceived Fun Factor, though it is a blast to roll through a stage with a Round Gun!

With the increase seen in some matches, would it be worth the future benefit for USPSA to encourage a few better prizes in the Revolver Division? Would the chance at a better prize make a difference to an existing Auto Competitor?

Any Ideas?

[Patrick Sweeney]

I'd hazard a guess that the numbers are so uneven because the aggregate is so low. If there are a hundred pistol shooters in each State, and an Area covers five to seven States, then there is a large enough base to fill a match wherever it is held. Even if one State has 40 and another 160, it averages 100 and evens out.

There may be only three or four wheelgunners in one State, and fifteen in another. If you hold an Area match at one end of the Area, those fifteen may not all want to make the drive. In another area, the hosting club might be in the epicenter of two dozen wheelgunners.

As for prize tables and attendace, most revo shooters shoot regardless of the prize table. Oh, they'll grumble about it, but they'll keep shooting. But human dynamics and economics being what they are, if (for example) S&W sponsored USPSA matches, provided all the prizes they supply went to the Revolver table and only the Revolver table, there'd be a sudden influx of wheelgunners.

the trick is increasing Revolver attendance without bribing the sunny-day shooters with loot.

[mikegot38]

I'd hazard a guess that the numbers are so uneven because the aggregate is so low. If there are a hundred pistol shooters in each State, and an Area covers five to seven States, then there is a large enough base to fill a match wherever it is held. Even if one State has 40 and another 160, it averages 100 and evens out.

There may be only three or four wheelgunners in one State, and fifteen in another. If you hold an Area match at one end of the Area, those fifteen may not all want to make the drive. In another area, the hosting club might be in the epicenter of two dozen wheelgunners.

As for prize tables and attendace, most revo shooters shoot regardless of the prize table. Oh, they'll grumble about it, but they'll keep shooting. But human dynamics and economics being what they are, if (for example) S&W sponsored USPSA matches, provided all the prizes they supply went to the Revolver table and only the Revolver table, there'd be a sudden influx of wheelgunners.

the trick is increasing Revolver attendance without bribing the sunny-day shooters with loot.

My wife is a revolver shooter and refuses to shoot USPSA matches because the constant reloading is tough. She has watched the matches and believes that the arrays are rarely six shot friendly. In other words, lots of standing reloads. That is why she bought me a revolver and has me shoot ICORE with her. (I still like USPSA best)

[pskys2]

You're right mikegot38, but after doing it for awhile I've found it's no big deal. All Revo's have to do the same. It does give those who practice their reloads a bit of an advantage. But, you don't even have to have range time to practice the reloads.

[Bill Nesbitt]

Yet some of the "Other" matches are pushing 20. Like the Summer Blast, Mississippi Classic and we even have 11 at the Kansas Sectional.

These matches have been promoted here on BE.com. Last year it was the Ohio State. Revolver shooters are a special breed. We invite other revolver shooters to our match so we can have competition.

I think Revolver is alive and well and growing. It will continue to involve work to promote the division from those of us who have seen the light.

[Schutzenmeister]

Shooting a revolver in an IPSC match requires a special breed of insanity ... One with which the average "bottom-feeder" is apparently unable to cope!

I shoot both IPSC and ICORE. I vary what I shoot in IPSC from time to time, but this year I intend to concentrate on revo. I would note however, that if more match designers would follow the recommended (by BOTH USPSA and IPSC) mix of 3 short, 2 medium, and 1 long course of fire, our reloading disadvantage would not be as great.

As a minimum, I would appreciate course designers following the rules when it comes to mandatory reloads and standards courses ... Max 6 round strings, or 12 rounds if a reload is required. This nonsense of 8-mandatory reload-8 leads to utter nonsense when applied to a revolver. (That's WHY the rule is written the way it is!)

[pskys2]

You gotta luv a "Classifier" with 7 Reload 7. Then figure the classification % off of Limited. But, hey you get the feeling of going fast and frenzied for a longer time.

IPSC one of the few things where the quicker you're done, the more fun you have. Shooting Revo in IPSC maximizes your fun!

[HI5-O]

I have revolvers but will not shoot them in USPSA/IPSC matches.

I live in a 10 rd (Open/Ltd) state and whenever I get to shoot a "big" match (read that as any match outside my state), I'd want get my moneys worth of fun by shooting lotsa bullets really fast in guns I paid $$$ for. Also, travel is a substantial part of my cost so I'm in it for the fun factor too.

You gotta respect a shooter who chooses to shoot in revolver class amongst those of us who shoot semi's. I admire their courage and perserverance in a sport where you can choose to shoot what you want.

I don't shoot big matches for the prize table (done Area 1 and Area 2) I shoot these matches for the fun of it. Looking to shoot matches further east i.e. Texas

Just my 2 pennies.

Barry

[ipscbob]

Shooting a revolver in an IPSC match requires a special breed of insanity ... One with which the average "bottom-feeder" is apparently unable to cope!

Some of Us BOTTOM FEEDERS just don't see the point! The sport is obviously optimized for autos and I believe in using the best tool for the job. Remember, for a lot of us this just a weekend diversion and not a way of life with an agenda to push.

[Flyin40]

In Ohio last week for local match we had 8 guys out of 57 shooting a revolver........

Flyin40

[Schutzenmeister]

Shooting a revolver in an IPSC match requires a special breed of insanity ... One with which the average "bottom-feeder" is apparently unable to cope!

Some of Us BOTTOM FEEDERS just don't see the point! The sport is obviously optimized for autos and I believe in using the best tool for the job. Remember, for a lot of us this just a weekend diversion and not a way of life with an agenda to push.

Did ya ever stop to consider that some of us insane wheel gunners just might consider our obsession to BE fun? The best tool for the job is the one that floats your boat, IMHO!

[richardschennberg]

There are two rules that make a mess:

1. Reload your revolver after six shots;

2. Design 8-round friendly courses of fire.

The result is too frequently having to reload every four rounds!

IMO once you make the 8-round friendly rule, you have to allow revolver shooters eight shots or you will kill the division.

I do understand that the intent was for equality without requiring anyone to buy 8-shot revolvers and the accompanying moon clips. However, this equality has been achieved at the expense of making revolver shooting in USPSA too difficult. It also just about forces everyone to shoot S&W model 625 .45ACP with full moon clips. So instead of "forcing" everyone who wants the most competitive equipment to buy an 8-shot, we forced everyone to not only buy a 6-shot .45ACP but also to reload it every four rounds!

[Carmoney]

So instead of "forcing" everyone who wants the most competitive equipment to buy an 8-shot, we forced everyone to not only buy a 6-shot .45ACP but also to reload it every four rounds!

Ah, it's not so bad....most of the time, there's a way to shoot the stage decently with a 6-shot gun, but you need to get pretty good at breaking things down and finding the tricky way to shoot it! All part of the challenge, all part of the fun!

[cliffwalsh]

Some of Us BOTTOM FEEDERS just don't see the point! The sport is obviously optimized for autos and I believe in using the best tool for the job. Remember, for a lot of us this just a weekend diversion and not a way of life with an agenda to push.

This attitude is very typical of shooters in general.

Just remember, not all of us want to take the easy way out.

[lefty45]

I enjoy shooting my revolver more than my semi auto. The ablitity to analyze a stage is much more important with the wheel. I take the ablity to breakdown a stage and apply it in my daily life. there is almost always is more than one way to shoot a stage or do a job. I guess a little thought is required with the wheelgun, it's brain food for me!

probably the biggest drawback is when designers require mandatory reloads after eight shots. Just remember, when shooting the revolver,we only shoot against other revolvers.

(it sure is fun to beat some of the other divisions

I'll be getting my stage breakdown/shooting lesson at A-6 from Master Walsh this weekend- look at Cliff's results in a match- He, as well as, other top revolver shooters can hold their own against other divisions

For those who doubt-- come to the darkside and give the wheelgun a chance.

For the answer to the original post- I'm fairly new to the sport, but the cost of travel and time off work would be my reason for lack of participation. I try to shoot within a half day of driving.

[pskys2]

Lefty45 I agree that travel is a limiting factor for me also.

Guys, "Bottom-Feeder", at least in my view, is a term of respectful identification. I've been shooting Auto's since I started in 1979. With the occassional dally into the round side. I still shoot my 1911, and enjoy it immensly, and long to afford a Limited Gun. I was curious as to why there are fewer Revo's. Strictly Mercenary or perceived fun. And what could be done to involve more competitors.

I also find the "Thinking" side of the Course fun. I used to shoot an Open Caspian Hi-Cap and kind of got bored with the ease of the Dot, and the ease of the Courses. With a Hi-Cap I only had to plan at most 1 Reload. With L10 it made me think a bit more, but I still had plenty of rounds to blast away, or my preference was to plan to the 10th round and concentrate on my sights.

Then I broke down and bought a good Revo and viola! I now have to plan out a course and pay attention to the sights/trigger work. It makes the time I spend on the course much harder. But, I don't pay a Match Fee to Breeeeze through a course, I want a challenge for my money. Revolver Division renewed my interest in competition and attending bigger matches again.

This isn't pitting Division against Division. There's room for all.

Edited May 4, 2006 by pskys2

[Schutzenmeister]

{...}

probably the biggest drawback is when designers require mandatory reloads after eight shots. {...}

Just a thought ... and this must always be done tactfully ... but try occasionally reminding your course designers of 1.1.5.2 and 1.2.2.1.

8-mandatory reload-8 is NOT a legal course of fire per the rules. By definition, any course which specifies a mandatory reload is a standards (or Classifier) course. For a standards course, no string may have more than 6 rounds, or 12 if a reload is required ... Hence, 8-reload-8 is not legal and could (in theory) be challenged and thrown out!

I would agree we will not endear ourselves to our "bottom-feeding" bretheren by ramming this down their throats, but the occasional tactful reminder might be helpful ...

0.02 cents

[Bwana Six-Gun]

Yet some of the "Other" matches are pushing 20. Like the Summer Blast, Mississippi Classic and we even have 11 at the Kansas Sectional.

These matches have been promoted here on BE.com. Last year it was the Ohio State. Revolver shooters are a special breed. We invite other revolver shooters to our match so we can have competition.

I think Revolver is alive and well and growing. It will continue to involve work to promote the division from those of us who have seen the light.

I believe Bill is right on this one. These matches were heavily promoted on this site. Also, for the MS Classic, I can tell you that our numbers are the reult of Hopalong and haras and a couple of others getting out and talking to wheel-gunners and convincing them that this match is worth the trip. I don't believe anyone shoots for the prize table, no matter how good it is, you still lose money when you figure in match fees, travel lodging, etc. A good table helps, but it is not the solution. We just have to keep pushing our matches and making sure that we don't end up in conflict on dates. If the Kansas Sectional and the MS Classic were not the same weekend, we would both have a lot more wheel-gunners in attendance.

Like everyone else, my two cents for what it is worth.

[Waltermitty]

Why shoot revolver when the world clearly favors high(er) cap autos?

Why Bow Hunt when it's obviously not the superior deer hunting method?

Why are muzzle loaders even made anymore?

Why hunt or fish at all? The supermarket has all you need!

Why screw around racing sailboats when any decent jet ski can run circles around you?

Why run a marathon when even a kid on a bicycle can cover the same ground faster than you can?

Why run anything but funny cars and top fuel dragsters at drag races? You wanna waste our air running your souped up station wagon?!?!?!!?

Why climb El Capitan when there is a road to the top?

Why don't more people do it? How many more would you want? Would it be as much fun if everyone did it?

I think the simple answer is that the revolver is too hard for the typical shooter to start with, and the typical shooter feels humiliated when a (less skilled in their opinion) shooter beats them solely due to equipment.

So what kind of person is competitive enough to drive hundred$ of mile$ to compete, yet chooses equipment that virtually guarantees they have no chance of winning the match? There may be something there worth understanding. Whatever it is, I know I'd rather spend my free time with the kind of person that thinks that's a great time; as opposed to that group that has to beat everybody at the show to feel that their time was well spent.

It's probably a small slice of the population that enjoys competition but is burned out on the dog-eat-dog attitudes that sometimes arise in other areas. I think that's what launched several of the "alternate" shooting games (ICORE, IDPA, SASS, et al).

To the extent that it is permitted to exist at all in USPSA, I don't see Revo Division ever having the mass-market appeal that Limited or even Open Divisions enjoy. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it does mean that the other divisions will get the Lions' share of support and promotion, while it will be up to us to attract and incentivise revo division participants.

Just like the USPSA Juniors and Womens programs are basically on their own.

This post is already too long so I'll cut it off with this. The leaders (and WINNERS) of our core group can grow this division by promoting it as if it were its' own stand-alone sport. If we become active (like the single stack guys?) and do our own work we may be able to get the tacit approval of the USPSA to do those things that will bring in more shooters. But we can't expect the current Section Coordinators and Area Directors to do any of the heavy lifting. My AD has said (loudly, on a number of occasions) if it were up to him there wouldn't be a Revo Division. So if we want a bigger division we will have to build it from scratch.

[John Heiter]

Two things.

1. Why don't more people shoot revolver? Because most of the time when you see revolver shooters they don't look like they're having fun. There will be one or two revolver shooters at a match and they're struggling to keep up with the semi's, getting frustrated w/ stage designs, etc. It's a cycle, the fewer people you have shooting in your division w/ you, the less fun you are likely to have. The less fun something is, the fewer people will do it. There's nothing inherently "not fun" about revolver shooting but a lot of people, often the revo guys themselves, make it seem that way. Here recently at our local club I've been keeping my eye on a subtle change in direction. We had a couple long absent shooters return and take up the revolver and added to our existing one or two revolver shooters, we suddenly have a group that has fun shooting against each other, they compare scores and times, they rib each other over their performances, etc. Suddenly, the revolver guys are having fun and I'm seeing a lot of other shooters starting to take notice. It's the Fun that wins the converts, not the Guns.

2. Why do some matches have a bunch of revolver shooters? Because some matches have one or two guys like Sam, Pat, and Glen who get out there and proclaim that revolver shooting is absolutely the most fun thing you can do and they do it so loud and so long that pretty soon folks start to believe them and decide to take the risk and see.

[pskys2]

Oh Man! I've always wondered what would make someone climb a Mountain! I feel like I'm hanging on with my fingertips too much while standing on the ground. Climb a Mountain, more cahoonas than I've got but ya gotta respect 'em (and amazingly most survive).

John, I'd go climb a mountain before I'd shoot a match and act like my world was ending. Most of the guys I've shot Revo with seem almost giddy, or crazed, like they have a secret no one else does. Guess I've been lucky.

But, I agree with most of what you're saying the Revo Division is why I got active again.

I've actually had a GM (he's been as high as 8th in a WS) say that Revo's are too tough, he doesn't think he can run one as fast as I do. That's BS he'd be smoking if he wanted, but my take is he doesn't have the time to put into it. And it does take some time.

We may not have mass appeal, but we are growing. Now if I can just get more guys at the local matches started.

My hats off to guys like Hop, Carmoney, Walsh, Walt and all the others that keep the flames fanned.

BTW:

The Sunflower has 15 Revolver Competitiors (3 of them are Masters in USPSA or ICORE).

The Mississippi has 20 Revolver Competitors (I think a GM there?).

All on the same weekend, 35 Revolver Competitors hitting big matches, wish our dates hadn't conflicted.

[Carmoney]

Sounds like the Summer Blast in PA is now up to 24 revolvers!!

Revo division is definitely gaining momentum!!

[10mmdave]

I like shooting a revolver in USPSA cause I LOVE seeing the faces of the auto guys that

are behind us in the overall stats

Plus I'm cheap and I get all my brass back

[ima45dv8]

I'm not a revolver shooter (yet - maybe one day), but I saw some amazing round-gun shooting on stage 7 at this weekend's A6 match (the one with the 2 Texas Stars). Cliff's run was faster than (approx.) half of the shooters in Lim, Lim-10 and Prod, and that was with 2 reloads!