Production Rules Proposal

[Flexmoney]

I thought I'd put in the time to draft some rules that I think take Production (back) where it needs to go. I sent these to my Area Director and he and I don't quite agree of a few things.

His take, and there might be plenty that agree, is that a factory ought to be able to offer a part in their catalog and therefore make that part legal. I just don't agree with that. I don't really know what a "catalog" item is. I know that some parts are only available through a company's custom shop...and may not be big sellers.

Here are the main things I am hoping to address with the draft of the rules that I put together:

- internal trigger work...fine

- sights....fine

- gun and parts need to be mass produced (2,000 units)

- gun and parts need to be on the market for 1 year

- gun and parts must be readily available to the US civilian market.

I don't know if my wording gets that done...it's just a draft.

None of this is revolutionary. In fact, we had most of it under the red book, but it slipped through the cracks a year or so ago. Now we are starting to see the fall out. This isn't a departure that will leave a lot of shooters high and dry.

The idea here is for Production guns (and parts) to have to actually be mass produced...and allow for cleaning up the crappy triggers and sights.

It's my position that if we give the companies free reign to put items into their "catalogs", then we are just creating a custom gun market...the cat is still out of the bag. If these parts are are truly "production", then prove it...sell a pile of them.

Heck, even Limited division requires that guns and parts meet a 500 produced number before they are approved and legal. Shouldn't Production require more units produced than Limited?

(BTW, the 2,000 units number helps to ensure that items are priced competitively and the features are marketable to the masses. You aren't going to get a lot of "made for racing only" guns if they have to make 2,000. If you do, then it will be one marketable gun and everybody will own one anyway.)

See attachment:

US_Production_Division_V2.doc

Edited March 26, 2013 by Flexmoney

[JakeMartens]

Really the only thing I don't agree with is the available for 1 year.

So for example the new S&W M&P could not be used for 1 year.

One year from when, from when it is first introduced or 6 months later when it finally hits the shelves. There is alot of lack time between introduction and being available.

[GeorgeInNePa]

If you are redoing the rules, why are you still allowing the milling of the slide for sights? There are sights out there that are better than factory and fit the factory dovetail.

How many "Production" guns come with buried BoMars?

[Loves2Shoot]

Don't forget the skate board tape clause

I like it.

[eerw]

I kind of think 17.1.1 and 17.1.3 are kind of repetitive. I would delete 17.1.1 as 17.1.2 readily available to the US general public and 17.1.3 2000 available mark the intent of the company to produce. This would allow gun companies to manufacturer a gun, supply the market and be legal for competition as soon as units manufactured and supplied is met.

21.5.1 I would not allow..I don't see the reason any production gun should be milled. Let the manufacturer or aftermarket sight maker design a sight for the factory cut.

also rule 16. I would modify to read 2 ounces +/- factory specified weight.

anyway..my 2 cents.

[Flexmoney]

I put the one year thing in as it is exactly what we had just a while ago in the Red book for Production.

And, we still have it in Limited. Limited reads this now:

16. Any complete handgun or components produced by a factory and available to the general public for one year and 500 produced. Prototypes are specifically not allowed.

To be honest, I don't know why that clause has been in there. Anybody want to hazard a guess? Mine is that they didn't want some factory shooter showing up with 'the next greatest thing' on the very day they became available...which would mean that the competition wouldn't have the same opportunity to have that 'latest & greatest' equipment (and a chance to put it through it's paces).

I could see losing that, or cutting it back to 6 months or something...but, we'd also need to change the 1yr rule for Limited and L-10 as well, right?

[Vlad]

I'd say drop 17.1.1 because if the first batch of guns is 2000, why should the gun not be legal to use? I think once it hits 2000 it is pretty much good to go.

Drop 17.1.2 or change its wording or you just banned guns out of production no matter how popular it was or how many were made. Lets say that Glock drops the 17 from their lineup for next year (absurd I know). Does that mean that next year no one can use any of the 4 gajilion glock 17s? I think 17.1.3 is enough. Maybe modify 17.1.3 to be 2000 build over some short period of time (ie a couple of years) to keep the factory customs in check?

17.2 concerns me on the magwell issue. It would make gigantic magwells ok as long as they where factory options. Yes you require them to be standard on some 2000 guns, but if the factory a batch for a military or police contract, now they are usable on the rest of all their guns. Heck, how much does a glock cost to make ... $80? They could make 2000 guns with magwells and never care if they sell them, just to make the magwells legal for all the rest of their guns. Unlikely, but pointing out a pitfall. I haven't made up my mind about magwells in production yet, specially huge limited/open type magwells. See bellow about a box.

I would drop 21.5.1, potential room for abuse, and I think mostly not necessary. I do not feel very strongly about it either way.

Maybe a box for production should be considered. The box dimensions may constrain absurd magwells. I personally think that IPSC production needs one too to constrain gigantic factory mags, but that is a different story.

Otherwise, I think Flex's modifications are a giant step in the right direction. I would like to see a minimum trigger pull but I would gladly drop that if the rest of the those changes would come to be.

[sfinney]

Some good ideas there, Flex..... I like the 2000 made clause, maybe even the year thing........but.....

"21.5.1 I would not allow..I don't see the reason any production gun should be milled. Let the manufacturer or aftermarket sight maker design a sight for the factory cut."

I agree. Ditch the "milled slide for Bomar clause", sights should have to fit he factory dovetail otherwise it should be ruled an extrenal mod.

And I don't like your clause allowing .40 caliber barrels in a 10mm either; that would get G20s (and others) into Production as .40s, and think how soft that setup would shoot, if people are already raving over the G20 as Limited gun in .40 in other threads. I understand your concept, but I would rather have people shoot their G20 as a downloaded 10mm. In fact, I don't think any replacement barrels should be allowed in Production that aren't factory equipment as well. ("Gee, my factory stock Glock is a great production gun....once I mill the slide for Bomars, add an aftermarket barrel so I can shoot lead, and do a trigger job that may cost $5..... or $250")

Production should equal "box stock" imo. Having said that, lets at least keep mods limited to internal only..... and a new barrel is definitely visible externally, as are Bomars.

Edited April 15, 2006 by sfinney

[vluc]

Wonderful thought, Kyle.

My .02 as a production shooter.

17.1.3 2,000 specific model units initially produced and sold.

17.2 Factory custom/performance guns, race parts, and special order items (extended control, magwells, etc) are prohibited unless they come (standard) on guns that meet the criteria listed in 17.1.1 – 17.1.3 (In other words, you can’t put an extended mag release on a Para LDA unless that Para extended mag release also comes on another Production approved/legal gun from Para, for example.)

21.5 External modifications other than sights not allowed. (This includes visible, measurable, and apparent modification on the exterior of the gun.)

21.5.1 Milling of the slide for the express purpose of sight installation allowed.

[EricW]

Kyle,

I would suggest USPSA create a new division and let it and the existing "Production" run side by side. Give it 24 months and let competitors vote with their signup sheets. Only one division survives at the end.

I would also advise a minimum trigger weight. And if that means a few people have to put stronger springs in their "factory" gun, so be it. Somewhere around the 3-4 lbs range seems about "right." 25 yard standards is a pretty tough row to hoe with a 5 to 7 lb trigger for most of us.

E

[JD McDorce]

Is part of the intent to have USPSA develop and maintain their own Production Gun List? As things currently stand, the US list is largely based on the IPSC list, with additions to account for longer allowable barrel length in the US and to place further clarification on (i.e. restrict) allowable Models of the Springfield XD. One question is whether or not the time, money, and effort spent for the USPSA to manage their own entire list would make one damn bit of difference in what we see at the range.

I still am a bit mystified by a system that lists the M&P9 and M&P357 on the US Production Gun List when those two models have not hit the public US market yet, yet the XD45ACP can be interpreted as not approved for US (even though it actually beat the M&P40 to market). I can understand that the M&P's were IPSC approved and passed through with the IPSC list. Since XD (except ported models) has been on the IPSC list for a while, it is my understanding that IPSC does not need to take any action on the XD45ACP since it is a non-ported XD.

[EricW]

JD,

The fact that the one new gun beats another to "The List" is almost entirely due to efforts/cooperation on the part of the respective manufacturers, not prejudices on the part of IPSC or USPSA. I have first hand experience with this one, so this isn't conjecture.

I'm fairly certain that the M&P 9 and 357 were approved defacto because the guns were identical in all respects to the 40 with the exception of caliber.

Why Springfield's guns have a difficult time making "The List" is a topic I won't go into here. One reason it may have not automatically been approved is the fact that it is an almost entirely different gun than the XD9/40 - contrary to SA's advertisements.

FWIW...

E

[RIIID]

Just a few things

I know of 2 gun companies that will not tell how many units have been produced. That info is for them and them alone, they don't want the competition to know what they are doing or have done.

I'm for any internal work be it milling or replacement of factory parts with aftermarket. Prime example some guns have inferior sears from the factory and after market ones are much better.

How does one define Custom shops/Performance centers/factories I've been in a couple of gun manufacturing facilities. The above is in the middle of the building a step to right your in the "factory" and a step to the left is your in the Custom shops/ Performance centers. I don't think gun companies will abide by someone else telling them their product won't be recognized because of what room in the factory it was built.

2000 units sounds good but if they fall short of say 2-6-10-20 units, see you later or you are close enough you're good to go if they will even tell you the numbers to begin with.

Swapping of barrels could be a good thing for the new shooters who can't afford to buy another gun. If they already have a 40 they can shoot Limited/L-10 and by putting in a 9mm barrel they can shoot Production on the cheap Wally World supplies a lot of shooters who don't reload.

As to the buried Bo-mars, as a gunsmith I might think twice about being a stage sponsor for a match if you cut me out of the loop or any other work a gunsmith can do to a Production gun. Gunsmiths are the ones who keep your guns running and show the gun companies how to improve their product. As a shooter a Bo-mar is the sight picture I want to see, not some piece of crap that happens to fit the factory dovetail.

One last thing with sweeping new rules who is going to be the one to tell a shooter who is a dedicated Production shooter your investment of 1,2,3,4 guns are now illegal. Because they have buried Bo-mars, extended mag releases, factory magwells, too light of a trigger pull,internally lightened slide.............................. or do grandfather them in.

I've got more but there's six slides that need to be milled for Bo-mars and need to lightened.

Rich

Rich

[bufit323]

At one point you note that there can be no modifications for the purpose of adding or subtracting weght. Would this include the addition of a solid guide rod?

Also, if you can not add or subtract weight (for that purpose) what is the 2 ounces for?

[sfinney]

I'm not in favor of shutting down any gunsmiths, or telling thousands of XD and Glock owners their guns are now illegal. To late. The "genie is out of the bottle", to late to reverse time. Keep it as is.

But maybe we change the current divison called Production, new rules where guns will become exactly that; and then make another division called "DA Limited" for those shooting race modifed "production" type double action/safe action guns.

[Steve Moneypenny]

Look like good rules flex. i also think to keep DA/SA guns competitive and to make sure things don't go nuts like with vanek triggers and the like we shoudl keep a rule of a trigger pull weight for first shot 4.5-5#'s would be great most DA guns can't go under that anyway.... sorry for all the glock shooters and other constant action guns. but i don't feel it is fair to everyone to have some people pay $200 for a trigger job that allows them to have a lesser grip on the basics (trigger control) and shoot better.

[Sixgun]

I would also advise a minimum trigger weight. And if that means a few people have to put stronger springs in their "factory" gun, so be it. Somewhere around the 3-4 lbs range seems about "right." 25 yard standards is a pretty tough row to hoe with a 5 to 7 lb trigger for most of us.

E

I've thought alot about this. I would like to see a 5 lb minimum 1st shot for DA with SA held to 2.5 lb for all DA/SA models. Now to be fair to all the XD's, Glocks and all other models that have basically the same trigger pull for each shot those should be held to 3.5 lb. That gives the shooter a reasonable choice.

I think that cutting slides for Bomars should be a no-go. There seems to be many great sights out there that will fit a factory cut dovetail. It seems that gunsmiths could make a good bit of money by designing a platform specific "BoMar rear sight looking" fixed sight that fits the factory dovetail...

This is coming from someone who would like to shoot Production, but will stick with Limited because I know where my equipment stands...

Ray

edited for a grammar correction.

Edited April 15, 2006 by Sixgun

[GeorgeInNePa]

I would also advise a minimum trigger weight. And if that means a few people have to put stronger springs in their "factory" gun, so be it. Somewhere around the 3-4 lbs range seems about "right." 25 yard standards is a pretty tough row to hoe with a 5 to 7 lb trigger for most of us.

E

I've thought alot about this. I would like to see a 5 lb minimum 1st shot for DA with SA held to 2.5 lb for all DA/SA models. Now to be fair to all the XD's, Glocks and all other models that have basically the same trigger pull for each shot those should be held to 3.5 lb. That gives the shooter the a reasonable choice.

I think that cutting slides for Bomars should be a no-go. There seems to be many great sights out there that will fit a factory cut dovetail. It seems that gunsmiths could make a good bit of money by designing a platform specific "BoMar rear sight looking" fixed sight that fits the factory dovetail...

This is coming from someone who would like to shoot Production, but will stick with Limited because I know where my equipment stands...

Ray

The above in bold is the most logical solution I've heard yet for trigger pull weight.

[Sixgun]

I would also advise a minimum trigger weight. And if that means a few people have to put stronger springs in their "factory" gun, so be it. Somewhere around the 3-4 lbs range seems about "right." 25 yard standards is a pretty tough row to hoe with a 5 to 7 lb trigger for most of us.

E

I've thought alot about this. I would like to see a 5 lb minimum 1st shot for DA with SA held to 2.5 lb for all DA/SA models. Now to be fair to all the XD's, Glocks and all other models that have basically the same trigger pull for each shot those should be held to 3.5 lb. That gives the shooter the a reasonable choice.

I think that cutting slides for Bomars should be a no-go. There seems to be many great sights out there that will fit a factory cut dovetail. It seems that gunsmiths could make a good bit of money by designing a platform specific "BoMar rear sight looking" fixed sight that fits the factory dovetail...

This is coming from someone who would like to shoot Production, but will stick with Limited because I know where my equipment stands...

Ray

The above in bold is the most logical solution I've heard yet for trigger pull weight.

Thank you.

Ray

[Gary Stevens]

I am curious as to what you would tell the members who have already installed Bo-Mars, in full compliance with the rules when the work was done. Tough??

Some things can fairly easily be undone. Changing a spring or some small item is one thing, undoing a set of milled in sights is something else.

Gary

[Caspian_45]

I am curious as to what you would tell the members who have already installed Bo-Mars, in full compliance with the rules when the work was done. Tough??

Some things can fairly easily be undone. Changing a spring or some small item is one thing, undoing a set of milled in sights is something else.

Gary

Gary, USPSA will just have to do what they always have. Make the rules up as they go along. This is really not that much different than the Vanek trigger ruling. You can always use those illegal production guns in Limited/L-10.

Flex, as Sundance said to Butch, "You just keep thinkin' Butch thats what you're good at".

[Sixgun]

I am curious as to what you would tell the members who have already installed Bo-Mars, in full compliance with the rules when the work was done. Tough??

Some things can fairly easily be undone. Changing a spring or some small item is one thing, undoing a set of milled in sights is something else.

Gary

Honestly... I think that, that is a greased pig that has left the barn. It's done, it's over, and we can't go back. My personal opinion is that milling your slide for buried BoMars is much more than just a simple sight change.

I don't want to see a "box stock" division, but I also don't want to see a "Non Single Action Limited" division. I would be happy with; you can change springs, guide rod, trigger work as mentioned previously, change sights, and add grip tape. I think that's enough for the more competitive of us to play with, while keeping it simple enough for a new shooter with his box stock Glock or Sig to not feel "threatened".

My opinion only.

Ray

[Gary Stevens]

We have a rule against external modifications that are not approved. I understand JA's ruling on the trigger because of the newly drilled hole that is external to the gun. I am sure that any other trigger jobs that do not involve external modificaitons would be fine.

While it might be dancing on the head of a pin, there is a specific rule allowing the modifications for sights, there is no specific rule allowing extra holes being drilled in a trigger. Actually it is to the contrary.

Perhaps my concern about the money our members have already spent on legal modifications is unwarranted. It seems I am operating in the minority. Strange that part of this conversation was about members having to spend money on modifications and that was considered bad, but once they have spent the money it is considered OK to simply trash that investment for, at least to me, no obvious good reason.

I wonder if those who are so eager to devalue members investments will still feel the same when the push comes to elminiate L-10.

Gary

Edited April 16, 2006 by Gary Stevens

[Nik Habicht]

Flex's proposed rules ---- my comments additions are in red.

US Production Division

Special conditions:

1 Minimum power factor for Major Not applicable

2 Minimum power factor for Minor 125

3 Minimum bullet weight No

4 Minimum bullet caliber / cartridge case length 9mm (0.354”) /19mm (0.748”)

5 Minimum bullet caliber for Major Not applicable

6 Minimum trigger pull No

7 Maximum barrel length Yes, Production guns 5.5” Revolvers 8.5”

8 Maximum magazine length No

9 Maximum ammunition capacity Yes, 10 rounds loaded maximum in any magazine after the start signal.

10 Max. distance of handgun and mags/speed loaders from torso 50mm

11 Rule 5.2.3.1 applies No

12 Restriction on position of holster and other equipment Yes, see item 20 below.

13 Optical/electronic sights permitted No

14 Compensators permitted No

15 Ports permitted No

16 Maximum weight Yes, 2 ounces over factory specified

17. Only handguns approved and listed on the USPSA website may be used in Production Division.

17.1 Inclusion on the Approved Production Handgun List requires the following:

17.1.1 Gun must be on the US market for over 1 year.

17.1.2 Gun must be readily available to US general public.

17.1.3 2,000 specific model units produced and sold. Sold? So if the performance builds and makes available for sale 5000 units within a year, not only do we have to wait a year of them being on the market, but if they only sell 500 units/annum, we’d have to wait four years? Is that what you intend?

17.1.4 Manufacturer or competitor must submit a Production Handgun Approval form with information that allows the verification of 17.1.1 – 17.1.3 Who’s job will it be to verify the information?

17.2 Factory custom/performance guns, race parts, and special order items (extended control, magwells, etc) are prohibited unless they come (standard) on guns that meet the criteria listed in 17.1.1 – 17.1.3 (In other words, you can’t put an extended mag release on a Para LDA unless that Para extended mag release also comes on another Production approved/legal gun from Para, for example.) Do we really want to open this door to magwells?

18. Single-action-only handguns are prohibited.

19. Handgun may not be in single action mode at start signal.

20. Neither the handgun, nor any of its attachments, nor any allied equipment (e.g. magazines or other loading devices), can extend forward of the line illustrated in Appendix F3. Any such items a Range Officer deems not to be in compliance must be safely and promptly adjusted, failing which Rule 6.2.5.1 will apply.

21. Allowed modifications are very limited and include the following:

21.1 No weighted attachments allowed to magazine. Grip tape may be applied to the basepad.

21.2 Front sights may be trimmed, fiber optics inserted, adjusted and/or have sight black applied. Sights must be of the notch and post type. Fiber optic sights are allowed. “V - notch” sights and post (such as the AO Express) are allowed.

21.3 Replacement barrels allowed provided barrel length and caliber is same as original factory standard. Heavy barrels and/or barrel sleeves not allowed. (note: 10mm and 40S&W are the same caliber, for example)

21.4 Internal action work to enhance accuracy and reliability (throating, trigger work, etc.) is allowed. The entire trigger is considered to be an internal part, for purposes of trigger work only.

21.1.1 Action work includes throating, extractor/ejector tuning, internal trigger work, springs, the recoil assembly, etc.

21.4.2 Action work does NOT include other internal work, such as adding or removing weight

21.5 External modifications other than sights not allowed. (This includes visible, measurable, and apparent modification on the exterior of the gun. The entire trigger is considered an internal part of the gun, for trigger work only.)

21.5.1 Milling of the slide for the express purpose of sight installation allowed.

21.5.2 Cosmetic gun finish enhancements (eg.Teflon,NP3,hard chrome, matt finish hard chrome, bright finish hard chrome etc) are allowed.

21.6 Aftermarket grips which match the profile of the OFM standard for the approved handgun and/or the application of grip tape or rubber sleeves is permitted. Modifications to grips, other than previously mentioned, not allowed, such as grooves cut to reach mag release or size reduction.

22. A competitor who fails to comply with any of the requirements above will be subject to Rule 6.2.5.1

23. Competition holsters of the race gun type specifically not allowed. For clarification: ALL retention features of the holster MUST be used. All holsters must fully cover the trigger when the pistol is holstered. The front of holsters for autos may be cut no lower than ¼-inch below the ejection port. Revolver holsters may be cut no lower than half way down the cylinder.

24. If we continue to have a USPSA Production gun list (as opposed to simply stating the features that make a Production gun a Production gun), then the list needs to be actively maintained by USPSA’s NROI.

[Nik Habicht]

Consider me crazy if you will but I'va always thought that the following were what separated Production from the other divisions:

1. Many guns can compete on a near equal footing. (Sigs, Berettas, Glocks, XD, CZ, S&Ws, Rugers, etc.

2. The non-single action start.

3. Minor scoring

4. Holster/mag pouch position.

5. Absence of magwells

My production guns are fairly basic Glock 34s and 17s. Drop-in Bo-mars with a thinned front sight blade, tungsten guide rods, polished trigger components, 14lb. Wolff springs. Grip Tape. That's about it. I recently started having some ammo problems, and actually made my trigger heavier --- didn't notice an effect on my shooting.

That said, people have spent more money than me modifying their guns to play in THIS division. Telling them to toss out their modifications (or to use the guns in Limited --- most production shooters I know have STIs or Paras for that division) is unconscionable.

As far as the recruiting problems go (My friend tells me there's no division where he can shoot his box stock Ruger) we gotta start realizing that not everyone will want to play this game. And some people will simply pick a handy excuse, rather than telling us, "Gee, I just don't think I'd be any good at that," or "That doesn't really look like it's fun, or safe, or appealing or insert reason de jour here>"

We can create another thirty or forty divisions ---- but I do not believe that we'll attract way more players of the game that way. I do believe that we could drive some folks out, by eliminating expensive, once legal equipment.

As far as the Amidon ruling on the trigger goes ---- I consider the trigger to be an internal part of the gun. Yes, part of it proceeds outside the frame, but within the confines of the triggerguard. I just don't get how modifying a trigger can be illegal when trigger work is specifically allowed. But hey, I could be missing the boat here.....