AFDavis11 Posted April 13, 2006 Share Posted April 13, 2006 (edited) I'm looking for a reasonably reliable hammer throw test. If I use a pencil how high should the pencil shoot up on a lightened trigger pull if I pull the trigger? Just trying to find a way to get the hammer throw close before heading to the range. Thanx for any comments. Oh, sorry, I forgot to mention its for Federal Primers. Yea, and made C class today! Edited April 13, 2006 by AFDavis11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waltermitty Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 I look for a 4 to 6 foot launch straight up. Pretty technical huh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopalong Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 AF11 Congrats on your C class! I personally have not used the scientific pencil test. I use an 8 pound max trigger scale. Pull the trigger (empty gun please ) and hold the trigger down. then pull the hammer back just enough to get the scale hook behind the hammer at the top. then just test the resistance it takes to get it back. I look for around 2 1/2 lbs. That gets me 100% function....may not yours you will just have to test it. But what do I know.....I'm just a dummy that shoots! Oh, and on Rudy........ He's pretty good. If you get a chance talk with him, and even better shoot with him. He'll help you out.......and tell him Sam said Hi! Hopalong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10mmdave Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 I look for a 4 to 6 foot launch straight up. Pretty technical huh. So is that a number 2 pencil or a number 3 ?? Sharpened or un-sharpened ?? New or used ?? Brand new eraser or partialy used ?? Which end towards the firing pin ?? Just kidding ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzShooter Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 Try the owie test. Open the cylinder, hold back the cylinder release and pull the trigger with you finger over the firing pin. If it hurts it's probably enough to ignite the primer. Pencil test... use the small pencils with no eraser and go for 4 ft. There will be no problem. Using a scale, depending on the primers you use and the caliber, small pistol primers will ignite at 32 oz of hammer fall. Large pistol primers seem to take a little more. In my guns 42 oz is the magic number. Hop described the method perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 I look for a 4 to 6 foot launch straight up. Pretty technical huh. BIC pen: about six feet straight up, but the plastic end gets beaten in pretty fast and you have to add tape layers to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnRodriguez Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 #1, don't use pencils. The earsers harden over time, and pens can't be sharpend. What your after is consistancy. Use BIC pens and replace them when a dipple is made on the bottom. Just buy a 30 pen pack and that should last you a year. I get to replace my supply at the company office and the accountant can't figure out why I'm exchanging new pens. Where ever you do your loading or gun work, mark a wall where you can place you gun up against so you don't have to make a guestamit. Federal primers: Measured from the face of the cylinder to the bottom of the pen, require 40 inches of travel. Winchester primers: 58 inches depending on the shape of firing pin point, I get about 10 trys on a federal primer set up and about 3-4 on the winchester before I have to replace the pen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waltermitty Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 I look for a 4 to 6 foot launch straight up. Pretty technical huh. So is that a number 2 pencil or a number 3 ?? Sharpened or un-sharpened ?? New or used ?? Brand new eraser or partialy used ?? Which end towards the firing pin ?? Just kidding ! HEY! Aren't you the guy that busted my chops on the other thread about using too many numbers and big words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 (edited) God I love this forum......you guys kill me!! I've never met you in person, JohnR, but nevertheless I can picture you wearing a white lab coat, shooting BIC pens up the wall against a giant wall chart, using an infrared radar camera to capture and calculate the distance to the nearest thousandth, and a computer graphing program to adjust the measurements to account for the dimple effect before each pen is finally phased out of service...... The only thing we need now to complete the circle is (1) Randy to tell us he's engineered a special Apex revolver hammer impact calibration tool (manufactured by Hearthco, of course) that will be on the market later this fall if he can find the time, (2) for Waltermitty to instantly put his dibs on one from the first production run, and (3) for me to make the absurd claim that you can measure hammer impact with a dremel tool if you know what you're doing.... Edited April 14, 2006 by Carmoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.carden Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 YOU GUYS GOT'A BE SH--ING ME.......... I cant believe what i'm reading here..........I hope the bottom feeders dont look in on this forum. Keep this up and they probably will drop the Revo Div............pencils....pens....OH MY GOD! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 (edited) Yeah, some bottomfeeder is probably going to start a "You Might Be a Wheelgunner If........" thread... Edited April 14, 2006 by Carmoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry V Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 (edited) YOU GUYS GOT'A BE SH--ING ME..........I cant believe what i'm reading here..........I hope the bottom feeders dont look in on this forum. Keep this up and they probably will drop the Revo Div............pencils....pens....OH MY GOD! Dan.....Hell I'm thinking crayons.......you know the big ones that kindergarten kids use, should fit nicely in a .45 barrel I mean come on, you test the power of the hammer by going out and shooting the thing and adjusting it until it's 100% reliable. Not complicated Edited April 14, 2006 by Jerry V Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 I test all my bottom feeders with a pencil. Not just for wheel guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waltermitty Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 YOU GUYS GOT'A BE SH--ING ME..........I cant believe what i'm reading here..........I hope the bottom feeders dont look in on this forum. Keep this up and they probably will drop the Revo Div............pencils....pens....OH MY GOD! So you guys are gonna claim this is the first you've heard of this practice? I learned it years ago after the series 80 1911's came out and everybody from newbies to grey bearded gunsmiths were putting them together wrong so that the firing pin block wasn't moving. Some of the old timers never could get the hang of it so they started leaving them out. The pen/pencil down the barrel trick was a quick and easy way to see if you had it back together properly before heading to the range for a proper function check. When Glocks came out, the 1911 faithful used this method to demonstrate that the striker on the Glock gave the primers a whimpy whack. So perhaps you haven't heard of an Instron Tensile and Elongation tester, a pencil hardness test, a Charpy impact test or a falling dart impact test either? They make those too, and if anybody ever comes up with some kind of force gage that will fit into a chamber and give a repeatable measurement for force applied to a primer I may well buy it if it doesn't cost an arm and a leg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Lee Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 God I love this forum......you guys kill me!! I've never met you in person, JohnR, but nevertheless I can picture you wearing a white lab coat, shooting BIC pens up the wall against a giant wall chart, using an infrared radar camera to capture and calculate the distance to the nearest thousandth, and a computer graphing program to adjust the measurements to account for the dimple effect before each pen is finally phased out of service...... The only thing we need now to complete the circle is (1) Randy to tell us he's engineered a special Apex revolver hammer impact calibration tool (manufactured by Hearthco, of course) that will be on the market later this fall if he can find the time, (2) for Waltermitty to instantly put his dibs on one from the first production run, and (3) for me to make the absurd claim that you can measure hammer impact with a dremel tool if you know what you're doing.... You should see all the pen marks from the BiC's hitting the ceiling above my bench! Special calibration BiC pen will be sold with replaceable end caps at a cost of $150.00 thru Hearthco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnRodriguez Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 The funniest part of this topic is that at last years IRC, Mark Itzstein and Ryan McQuilty asked me how we check for reliablilty of ours guns workingl. After I told them how to check, Vic Pickett walked up and confirmed the process. Mark and Ryan probably thought we were BSing them. Now there suspicions are confirmed. hey Randy, did you get Vics gun working again??? i don't think he liked it when I was cheering every time his gun light hit at the spring steel match at Rio. Maybe we can form a cheering section for him at the SW regional next week. If I decide to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Lee Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 The funniest part of this topic is that at last years IRC, Mark Itzstein and Ryan McQuilty asked me how we check for reliablilty of ours guns workingl. After I told them how to check, Vic Pickett walked up and confirmed the process. Mark and Ryan probably thought we were BSing them. Now there suspicions are confirmed.hey Randy, did you get Vics gun working again??? i don't think he liked it when I was cheering every time his gun light hit at the spring steel match at Rio. Maybe we can form a cheering section for him at the SW regional next week. If I decide to go. I'm waiting on a new cylinder for Vic's gun...hmmm ...Bubber's new gun is almost finished... His cylinder looks pretty good... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hearthco Posted April 15, 2006 Share Posted April 15, 2006 God I love this forum......you guys kill me!! I've never met you in person, JohnR, but nevertheless I can picture you wearing a white lab coat, shooting BIC pens up the wall against a giant wall chart, using an infrared radar camera to capture and calculate the distance to the nearest thousandth, and a computer graphing program to adjust the measurements to account for the dimple effect before each pen is finally phased out of service...... The only thing we need now to complete the circle is (1) Randy to tell us he's engineered a special Apex revolver hammer impact calibration tool (manufactured by Hearthco, of course) that will be on the market later this fall if he can find the time, (2) for Waltermitty to instantly put his dibs on one from the first production run, and (3) for me to make the absurd claim that you can measure hammer impact with a dremel tool if you know what you're doing.... You should see all the pen marks from the BiC's hitting the ceiling above my bench! Special calibration BiC pen will be sold with replaceable end caps at a cost of $150.00 thru Hearthco. 150 will barely be dealer price! Dont worry Dan, bottomfeeders READ this forum for entertainment #1, don't use pencils. The earsers harden over time, and pens can't be sharpend. What your after is consistancy.Use BIC pens and replace them when a dipple is made on the bottom. Just buy a 30 pen pack and that should last you a year. I get to replace my supply at the company office and the accountant can't figure out why I'm exchanging new pens. Where ever you do your loading or gun work, mark a wall where you can place you gun up against so you don't have to make a guestamit. Federal primers: Measured from the face of the cylinder to the bottom of the pen, require 40 inches of travel. Winchester primers: 58 inches depending on the shape of firing pin point, I get about 10 trys on a federal primer set up and about 3-4 on the winchester before I have to replace the pen. Hey John, I could recondition the little plugs from the pens for 4 bucks ea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffwalsh Posted April 15, 2006 Share Posted April 15, 2006 You could just prime brass and use the real thing.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubber Posted April 15, 2006 Share Posted April 15, 2006 Alright you guys.. No. 2 lead pencil sharpened to the length of 1.50 or 1.280 if using the 38 super. You can load 6 or 8. Keeping it at a 42 degree angle so the hard rubber eraser is in contact with the rebound sheild. You can launch the cylinder load at a large target 7 feet away and check your groups. The pencils make a good arc toward the target not unlike my 45 loads out of my 625. The pencils should stick in the cardboard. Still not unlike my 45 loads. Double Action be sure to tell Chris about this. Between this and the Mumblypeg class given at the ICORE match two weeks ago Mom should be proud... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubber Posted April 15, 2006 Share Posted April 15, 2006 The funniest part of this topic is that at last years IRC, Mark Itzstein and Ryan McQuilty asked me how we check for reliablilty of ours guns workingl. After I told them how to check, Vic Pickett walked up and confirmed the process. Mark and Ryan probably thought we were BSing them. Now there suspicions are confirmed. hey Randy, did you get Vics gun working again??? i don't think he liked it when I was cheering every time his gun light hit at the spring steel match at Rio. Maybe we can form a cheering section for him at the SW regional next week. If I decide to go. I'm waiting on a new cylinder for Vic's gun...hmmm ...Bubber's new gun is almost finished... His cylinder looks pretty good... Randy, Vic won't be good to the cylinder it should have a nice home. I promise to put my dremel up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFDavis11 Posted April 15, 2006 Author Share Posted April 15, 2006 You could just prime brass and use the real thing.... What happens then? How loud is the report? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waltermitty Posted April 15, 2006 Share Posted April 15, 2006 (edited) You could just prime brass and use the real thing.... What happens then? How loud is the report? Primers are loud as hell! (another testing thread) The reasons to have another test beside "the real thing" include the logistics of firing everytime you make a change. Some of us are tinkering in the suburbs and run the risk of a "shots fired" call from the garage or having to make a trip to the range after adjustments or worse, trying to work at the range. The bigger reason is repeatability and predictability of results. So you just lit a primed case; did it "just barely" go off, or do you have a wide margin of safety. How do you know? There are multiple reasons for FTF, and it may take hundreds of rounds of live fire to discover it, much less diagnose it. Surely I'm not the only one that has made a change, burned 100 rounds in testing, then had FTF's at my very next match? If you have a few performance benchmarks, even crude tests may help you make progress near the margins. Having "light strikes", but you can stick a number two pencil into the ceiling of your shop? It ain't the hammer spring. Go check something else. As you reach the limits of any critical technology the need for an "off-line" test becomes more important. It will ultimately have to be correlated to the real world, but once the test and results have been standardized it can be very useful when making changes or diagnosing problems. Edited April 15, 2006 by Waltermitty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R112mercer Posted April 15, 2006 Share Posted April 15, 2006 You could just prime brass and use the real thing.... What happens then? How loud is the report? The primers are loud (like a cap pistol on steroids) but the real problem with that is the primers back out of the primer pockets and make cycling difficult. When the case is loaded (powder, bullet, etc.) the ignition of the powder forces the case back onto the primer, and thus the primer is seated back into the pocket. Bubber; God, mumblypeg, that reminded me of a when I was a kid, teaching the city kids where I live how to play! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmorris Posted April 19, 2006 Share Posted April 19, 2006 If your shooting live primers try these along with a thick cardboard box http://www.outdoorsuperstore.com/store/pro...B-VELOCITY).htm +1 on the bic pen in ser 80 1911's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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