GeneralChang Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 A suggestion, redo the classifier for next month's match alongside the classifier for May's match as a makeup if USPSA rules allow it. If we throw out the classifier, don't we lose the activity credit? Dave, my thoughts exactly, lets make up the classifier next month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 You base your decision on whether to count the classifier on if it was properly setup and stayed that way. Moved "a bunch" means it likely needs tossed. All the reason and excuses as to why you want to count it can't take priority over doing the right thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 but is it out of wack enough to make a difference in classification levels, does it make a B shooter a C or an A. The difference between B class & A class is 0.01% ....... so tell me how do YOU make that call here ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted April 3, 2006 Share Posted April 3, 2006 (edited) The question, I think, is more to the point of the integrity of the course as a classifier if something's moved... The integrity of the course and the integrity of the classification system are important, but I think the integrity of the Match Director(s) is just as important. If the guys administering the classifier knew the stage had changed and they decided to not send the scores in, I would honor their decision. All the reason and excuses as to why you want to count it can't take priority over doing the right thing. I agree. Edited April 3, 2006 by Ron Ankeny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted April 3, 2006 Share Posted April 3, 2006 I don't think it should be sent in. Lots of talk about a couple of inches and sloped bays, but the basic deal is that we should do the best we can when it comes to matching the classifier diagram. If a problem is discovered, then the classifier shouldn't be sent in. Yes it sucks. Locally the MD set up a classifier that had been tossed out months before. I suspected it when I saw a popper directly behind another popper. Checked it out when I got home and e-mailed the MD. The classifier wasn't sent in, the shooters were informed, nothing was done about the classifier/activity fee that wasn't sent to USPSA (I never heard anyone complain). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted April 3, 2006 Share Posted April 3, 2006 Sounds like Toss the stage and of course don't send it in. If you as an RO/MD cannot vouch for the integrity of a stage setup and its continuation then you must have all involved reshoot the stage or toss it. For those that think a classifier is ok to set up wrong and send in scores I believe you are wrong and are defeating the entire purpose of the USPSA classification system. Now common sense says if a range slopes, is wet, has a different backstop color, has rocks, uneven ground or any normal small variation that is ok. A popper moved a foot doesn't meet a normal variation IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
driver8M3 Posted April 3, 2006 Share Posted April 3, 2006 a popper at 35 feet thats moved a foot or less will have less of an impact than a barricade thats tilted because of an uneven range surface. i've seen barricades tilted such that leftys and rightys both take their shots from the same side (when the procedure gives them a choice of either side). man, i'd love to see some exact measurments from various classifiers set up at different clubs around the country...i have a feeling they wouldn't be as close as some of you would like. i'd send these scores in... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 3, 2006 Share Posted April 3, 2006 Wow...the two wrongs make a right approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted April 3, 2006 Share Posted April 3, 2006 i'd send these scores in... ...and you aren't alone. I have seen scores sent in when the match administration knew the set up wasn't right, targets shifted, a substitute for the proper prop was used, etc. Hate rant to follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
driver8M3 Posted April 3, 2006 Share Posted April 3, 2006 Wow...the two wrongs make a right approach. actually, what i'm saying is a popper at 35 feet that moved a foot or less (on this particular stage) is not enough of a wrong to not send in the scores.and also that because of range surface and prop differences, not all shooters shoot the exact same COF all the time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted April 3, 2006 Share Posted April 3, 2006 a popper at 35 feet thats moved a foot or less will have less of an impact than a barricade thats tilted because of an uneven range surface. i've seen barricades tilted such that leftys and rightys both take their shots from the same side (when the procedure gives them a choice of either side).man, i'd love to see some exact measurments from various classifiers set up at different clubs around the country...i have a feeling they wouldn't be as close as some of you would like. i'd send these scores in... This sounds like a case of a tired MD that isn't getting the help he/she needs. If I came to this stage set-up this way I would refuse to shoot it until it was corrected. It is the responsibility of every RO/CRO, whether you are working the match or not, to uphold the RO creed. The stage I primarily commented about moving 2" might have been 3"or 4" but it was CM99-55 and T3-T4 did not have the same visual separation between T1-T2 and T5-T6. It wouldn't matter to me if I shot a stage at 100% with a hit factor of 25, if it wasn't set-up right then it shouldn't count. If I can only shoot that good once then what chance would I have if I raise my class to GM if I only shoot A scores. But then I am only a C class so nobody listens anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted April 3, 2006 Share Posted April 3, 2006 I wasn't tired - just sloppy on the setup (no markings, no staking) I shot it in the 2nd to the last squad. Our squad didn't notice anything amiss with the setup. The last squad shot the stage, and notified me afterwards that they felt there was a problem in the setup. They noticed it because if they leaned far enough to the right , they could start to see a shoot through on the extreme left side of T3 to PP2. The feeling is that this somehow moved while the last two squads were shooting - or moved the last amount... So, I didn't know about the situation until after the last squad had shot and folks started heading home already. Upon examination and discussion, it was not felt that the difference was significant enough to throw the stage from the match. In a post match club meeting, we discussed that the stage probably could not be used for classification purposes, due to the difference - that's where the flak began. Apparently, even with the slightly more difficult shot on PP2, we had some stellar runs on the stage yesterday. You can't win in this situation - the question is, what's right by the classification system... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markm Posted April 3, 2006 Share Posted April 3, 2006 We always set it up the barracade in the center of the center line for this one. I think we would let the competitors choose if the score went in or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbadaboom Posted April 3, 2006 Share Posted April 3, 2006 (edited) I haven't read this complete thread so I don't know if this has already been mentioned but the classifier should not be submitted and all shooters should receive a $3.00 refund (or whatever the submission fee is at the time). Those who shot it well and will complain about it have every right to. The M.D. is responsible so bitch away. Edited April 3, 2006 by Bigbadaboom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38superman Posted April 3, 2006 Share Posted April 3, 2006 No "standardized" stage is going to be set up perfectly. I recently shot a classifier that had a barricade that was supposed to be centered but was off center from the target array by at least a foot, maybe two. There is no way to have absolute accuracy is the stage setups. If I shoot a classifier in the rain and mud with bad footing and the wind blowing the targets around, is that the same as the guy that shoots the same course in perfect conditions? Just my humble opinion but it sound like splitting hairs. Tls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted April 3, 2006 Share Posted April 3, 2006 the question is, what's right by the classification system Since you asked, I'll tell you exactly what I would do. I'd call Sedro and explain the problem and let them make the call. My concern is maintaining the integrity of the system and the intergrity all of those involved. If HQ feels the scores should stand, I would support their decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted April 3, 2006 Share Posted April 3, 2006 Not a bad idea if I do say so myself, Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJPoLo Posted April 3, 2006 Author Share Posted April 3, 2006 I'd like to thank everyone who took the time to reply to my original post. I have gotten a lot of good insights and was able to contemplate many sides of this issue which did not initially come to mind. Admins: Please close this topic. -Chet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuz Posted April 4, 2006 Share Posted April 4, 2006 the question is, what's right by the classification system Since you asked, I'll tell you exactly what I would do. I'd call Sedro and explain the problem and let them make the call. My concern is maintaining the integrity of the system and the intergrity all of those involved. If HQ feels the scores should stand, I would support their decision. Is there an "allowable" margin of error when setting up a classifier? There can't be zero tolerance for measurements. Just curious as this topic taught me a few things I didn't know about classifiers and how much they meant. I just assumed that they were a fun way to see how you stacked up against the rest of the shooters in the game. Apparently it's significantly more than that. Forgive my ignorance on this one. -Cuz. I'd like to thank everyone who took the time to reply to my original post. I have gotten a lot of good insights and was able to contemplate many sides of this issue which did not initially come to mind.Admins: Please close this topic. -Chet Oops. Sorry, I posted before I read this... -Cuz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJPoLo Posted April 5, 2006 Author Share Posted April 5, 2006 I'd like to thank everyone who took the time to reply to my original post. I have gotten a lot of good insights and was able to contemplate many sides of this issue which did not initially come to mind. Admins: Please close this topic. -Chet Oops. Sorry, I posted before I read this... -Cuz. Well, I would have hoped that an admin would have honored my request by now which would have made it impossible to add any posts to this thread. That being said, being a forum admin is a thankless task and I would like to publicly thank them for all the work that they do for us. -Chet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted April 5, 2006 Share Posted April 5, 2006 While generally active topics aren't closed on request (especially not in the thread-- PM somebody instead), about the only thing that hasn't been said here is what USPSA is going to do. So, until then or unless somebody just has to post something (PM me), I'm going to close it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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