"bipsc" Clarifications

[Flexmoney]

MB,

You said a lot in your last post. And, I really do enjoy your posts and, especially, your perspective. Because of you and what you are trying to do, I've put a lot of thought into some of these issues over the last couple of years.

Thanks for the spark.

Now...not to bust your balz, but I'm not seeing some of the things you are and I'd hope you would elaborate...

I think USPSA has become far too specialized in its course design. It is the current equivalent of PPC, a sport requiring a very specific, and at this point very narrow, range of skills...

I am having trouble seeing that? I shoot a handful of different pistol games. I just don't see the "narrow" range of skills. In fact, of all the pistol games I have shot, USPSA tests more skills and does so more often. Freestyle...Accuracy, Power, & Speed. It ROCKS!

Now, if you tell me that the stages look plain-jane of the view screen, I'll buy that. If you tell me the setups aren't easy to film around, I'll buy that. If you tell me the scoring is hard to follow, I'll buy that. If you tell me the action is hard track on film, I'll buy that. But, you are going to have to sell me pretty hard to convince me that USPSA only tests a narrow range of skills.

Improvements I think would broaden the tests would include more moving targets...which, I think , some of the "bubblegum" tends to simulate.

[Flexmoney]

...catering at its highest levels to a very specific, relatively exotic weapons' system

That just covers Open division. And, it pains me to hear you say that. Because, coming from a media producer, I fear the myth of "you need a $3000 gun to compete" might get further perpetuated.

[MBaneACP]

Hey Flex;

Sorry to be so long in answering....had hellish road trip...

RE: skills, try this...downsize the steel targets (think 8-inch plates), move 'em out to 12-20 yards and be prepared for hours of hilarity as person after person attempts to point-shoot 'em.

Probably too broad a sweeping generalization, but I see lots of different kinds of matches in lots of different places, and trends do emerge. I sort of think that personal sports in general tend to evolve toward what the best people do best. In USPSA, stage and gun design have evolved toward the classic up-close-and-personal run-and-gun because that's what the top tier does best and prefers to do. Not good or bad...just is. No different than the other shooting sports. either...might want to read the perceptive article on Cowboy Action Shooting in the current AMERICAN HANDGUNNER.

I think the verdict's still out on whether Production and/or Single Stack can alter the dynamic of the sport. From my viewpoint, I like Single Stack because of the overriding popularity of the 1911...I get tons of requests for more 1911 stuff. Unless we do it as a full court press, however, a la the Steel Challenge, the viewers don't show much interest in competition per se. The Steel Challenge shows are the only ones where we actually say who won and who lost...usually, we use competitions as backdrop to cover a specific subject. I'll be at the International Revolver Championships in a couple of weeks, but more as an excuse to talk about trick revolvers than to highlight another Miculek victory (unless, of course, Jerry's struck by lightning or carried off by a pod of marauding orca, in which case we'll be discussing TGO's "stunning" victory).

Whatever it is, I'm pretty much game to film it. Am looking forward to the new Ruger 2-gun rimfire competition, which should be off the ground by fall. There's talk of a cowboy-action-shooting style military 3-gun match, with shooters limited to the guns of a specific military period, ie, WW2, etc. Be a cool match to cover or shoot! I get a lot of requests for WW2 stuff. I like matches with a physical component, the ITRC or the MGM Ironman. The most important thing for me is that the viewers look at the show and say, "Gee, I wanna try that." And that I have fun.

mb

[Jim Norman]

Mike,

If you want to show the public what USPSA shooting is, why not film a half dozen local matches around the country and do a comentary on the width and breadth of USPSA. The shooters, the local level, the equipment of the C class shooter and so on. 30 seconds on the scoring system, points earned diveded by the time it takes to earn them. Winner scores 100%, everyone else gets awarded based upon their percentage of the stage winner. add up the points and you have a match winner. Just like auto racing, you don't know who won till the race is over.

Jim Norman

PS, Can you try and get a reasonable time slot for your shows?

[moverfive]

Had same the problem with the timeslot, but just recently solved it with a DVR (or TIVO for you satellite folks). Regardless of the flavor, awesome device!

Anyway to the real point - I think Jim has an excellent suggestion. I know a lot of people don't play in any of the gun games because of the intimidation factor.....much like why a lot of people who do participate in local USPSA matches don't compete at a major match - they don't think they will be very competitive.

And now that I am able to watch your shows, I really like your presentation and how you bring everything down to an non-competitor's level. In other words, I think your style would help folks understand what is out there and to remove some of that intimidation preventing from taking that last step needed to play in one of the many gun games out there.

But just showing the major matches and top competitors might be adding to that intimidation factor - which is part of the reason why I think Jim has a good suggestion to show some 'local, everyday' folks in a local environment.

But really like your show and hope you continue to have good luck with it.

[Flexmoney]

No different than the other shooting sports. either...might want to read the perceptive article on Cowboy Action Shooting in the current AMERICAN HANDGUNNER.

Just read that one.

RE: skills, try this...downsize the steel targets (think 8-inch plates), move 'em out to 12-20 yards and be prepared for hours of hilarity as person after person attempts to point-shoot 'em.

Dude...we shoot that stuff all the time. We gotta get you out more often.

(notice how I "dude'd" ya? )

In USPSA, stage and gun design have evolved toward the classic up-close-and-personal run-and-gun because that's what the top tier does best and prefers to do. Not good or bad...just is.

Is not.

That is just so untrue that I don't know how to respond properly...at least, in my experience. Then again, we've never shot together...so I may not be experiencing the matches that you shoot.

Seriously, it does pain me to hear that you believe USPSA is all run and gun. (Ironically, the point shooting advocates tell us how we are too precise.) I do understand that there were certain areas of the country...a few years back...that subscribed to fast and furious stage design, but we are hearing less and less of that.

[rtr]

I to have to disagree with the notion that USPSA is "classic up-close-and-personal run-and-gun".

In the past four weekends I've shot about 26 stages in competitive matches. There have certainly been close up hoser targets in those stages, probably 20 targets total. In addition there have been poppers out as far as about 20 yards, paper at the same distance, small square plates at about 13 yards, etc. Point being there is always a good mix of targets that require precision and some hosing.

All these matches are in the Eastern Colorado Section, I invite you to come to any of our matches Michael, they aren't very far from where you live.

[RIIID]

Mike,

Maybe the top tier of A,B,C,D want up close and hoser targets, OK maybe some of the M's. The top tier of GM's and M's want hard shots and stages that test gun handling skills of the highest level. Naturally they are going to be best on those types of stages. They have to shoot what the majority want. Right now that is more bang for their bucks.

Have I been left in the dark, there are more than two sports channels (ESPN and ESPN2). But what would anyone expect when our local movie theater is just now showing RockyIII and Jaws II.

Rich

P.S. What happened to filming the Single Stack Nationals.

Edited June 6, 2006 by RIIID

[SA Friday]

I to have to disagree with the notion that USPSA is "classic up-close-and-personal run-and-gun".

In the past four weekends I've shot about 26 stages in competitive matches. There have certainly been close up hoser targets in those stages, probably 20 targets total. In addition there have been poppers out as far as about 20 yards, paper at the same distance, small square plates at about 13 yards, etc. Point being there is always a good mix of targets that require precision and some hosing.

All these matches are in the Eastern Colorado Section, I invite you to come to any of our matches Michael, they aren't very far from where you live.

A BIG +1 on this. Stage one at Aurora last Sunday was Brutal! 8" plates mixed into a total mess of targets. The plates were at least 20', and felt like 50' while shooting them. We are in your back yard Mr Bane. Come on out and see, or better yet, work with us.

My wife said something very interesting yesterday. If TV can market Texas Hold'em, I GOTTA believe they can market USPSA. It's gotta be better than Seinfeld reruns

[MBaneACP]

Single Stack Classic got caught up in my reorganization of budgets...essentially, I'm no longer able to "film in advance" for the next season and bank the show. I gotta act like a real business...success has its limitations, strangely enough. Will do SSC next year...am planning on getting to Dick Heinie's October SS match in Hannibal, too.

SA Friday...my passport's not good for Castle Rock! The only time I'm there is riding the Elephant Rock Century — my favorite bicycle event in the whole world — and I missed even that this year. Is true that I only see big dog stuff, one of the unfortunate side-effects of the job, so my view is generally slanted.

Also remember that USPSA has never invited me to film a national event, except the most back-handed stupid way imaginable ("We probably wouldn't ask you to leave"), and I have been informed that the situation will not change in the forseable future. I have no stake in presenting or promoting USPSA per se.

USPSA is easily marketable, using the model that Paul Erhardt and I developed for NSSF. It's the same model I use for the Steel Challenge, and it works great. It does, however, require some intelligent alliances and some thoughful people running the program. I've always thought that the people on this list, with a few exceptions, would do an excellent job running USPSA.

Michael b

[EricW]

RE: skills, try this...downsize the steel targets (think 8-inch plates), move 'em out to 12-20 yards and be prepared for hours of hilarity as person after person attempts to point-shoot 'em.

Any day you'd like me to drag out the plate rack, step out to the 50 yard line, and compare scores with ya Mikey, I'll be there.

P.S.

Mind if I bring some friends?

[Precision40]

I know for a fact that there are at least 2 people right here on this forum that are more than capable of filming and editing a a completed product to give to a network on very short notice. This "It's not in the budget or timetable" is doing absolutely nothing for the sport.

We've been batting around this "Network Deal" argument for years and to be quite honest, it's not a bit better now than what it was 5 years ago.

Just my .02 and opinion

[MBaneACP]

Guys...guys...Eric, you can probably shoot better than me when you're asleep...so what? Precision...it isn't about who can film and edit what, it's who has a deal with a television network or who can pony up the money to buy the time at MSRP. Remember, my job isn't to support the sport; my job is to make television programs that get watched.

mb, back to lurking!

[EricW]

Guys...guys...Eric, you can probably shoot better than me when you're asleep...so what?

The point is, I have a C-card and I'm not the one laying down the gauntlet, you are. Any day you'd like to check my accuracy skills, you're welcome to do so. I will be *happy* to rise to the challenge in the name of good sport. And if I get my butt spanked, I'll be a good sportsman and take it like a man. (Gots to be humble with a Charlie card jingling around yer pocket.)

The reasons why IPSC shooters appear to have accuracy problems go beyond the inability to perform well mechanically on a one-target stand and shoot. I'm not saying that overall there isn't an issue with the accuracy skills in the sport. There most certainly is. However, there are enough talented people in the sport - a lot of whom surf this board regularly - that I would hesitate go laying down "challenges" like the one you did (which a lot of folks here regard as a non-challenge).

Finally, I don't want you to go back to lurking. Stick around. It's a good discussion. Nobody's down on ya, just rebutting a point in a long series of good points.

(Edited to correct grammar)

Edited June 10, 2006 by EricW

[tightloop]

It is about who has the contacts with the stroke....that is you Mike...Now the point is whether you want to take the time, swallow your pride a little and SEE if you cannot get something on film that would help the sport...if you can't..ok...however if you can and just don't feel the inclination....well that is a horse of a different color..

I have read all the past posts on How to Market USPSA, and you certainly had some good ideas, but very few of us are in the position you are..that is able to intermingle with those who could make USPSA films a possibility...and I have to agree, if someone can make a series about Texas Hold Em..there damn sure has to be a way to do films of USPSA shooting...

I would rather watch paint dry than watch poker on TV....

My .02 worth..

[ipscbob]

Hey Flex;

RE: skills, try this...downsize the steel targets (think 8-inch plates), move 'em out to 12-20 yards and be prepared for hours of hilarity as person after person attempts to point-shoot 'em.

I am speechless. We see 8" plates and US poppers out at 15-20 yards regularly at most of our local matches. Seems like those that seem to state that typical USPSA stages don't test accuracy will then state in the next breath that they don't really shoot much USPSA. Sorry but I NEVER point shoot........Come on out, spend lots of time putting your best up against mine at the matches I shoot and then you will have enough credibility to tell me that they are not a good test of accuracy/skills.

[uscbigdawg]

Mr. Bane,

I think that you've been too far removed from USPSA for too long to have an accurate assessment on what course design, skill level required and abilities of the shooters are. The reality is that USPSA requires the most out of a shooter at any given moment. Accuracy, speed and agility.

If you cannot see that, or are unwilling to see that, well that's solely up to you. If you choose not to cover USPSA events on your show, again...it's up to you. But do not discount or reduce the abilities of the participants in USPSA/IPSC to merely point shooting large brown pieces of cardboard and especially that we have in someway regressed to "classic up-close-and-personal run-and-gun" shooting. It's insulting and flat out untrue.

Rich

[shred]

Guys, I think McBane has a pretty good idea what passes for USPSA matches these days.. Like it or not, club matches anywhere I've been lately are largely a slew of 30-round field-courses and a classifier. It's what the customers want.

When TGO says (heavily paraphrased) that down-8 on the Bianchi plates means you can shoot, and BE says 4 or 6 left is good, are IPSC shooters not making the time or not making the hits?

Selling anything to TV is a whole different story.

[Flexmoney]

There is a big difference in a slew of field courses + a classifier and "...USPSA has become far too specialized in its course design. It is the current equivalent of PPC, a sport requiring a very specific, and at this point very narrow, range of skills and catering at its highest levels to a very specific, relatively exotic weapons' system."

Nobody is winning matches in my neck of the woods by being a point shooter. Nobody is winning by being a stand-n-deliver specialist...a Bianchi specialist...a track star...etc. etc. all down the line.

It takes a mix of skills. If you are lacking in any one area...USPSA matches (and the other competitors) will find that weakness.

[shred]

I think what he means is at the top levels, the winners, with the exception of Revo and Production, which we ignore anyway, use very specialized equipment that can't be bought at the neighborhood gunshop. Not the guns, not the ammo, not the holsters. The question then is "why do I want to watch indy racing if I can't buy an indycar at the dealer?" Notice how wildly popular showroom stock racing is in this country.

And at a basic level, the skill you need to win USPSA matches are to zip through 30 round field courses with reasonable accuracy on targets under 20 yards and great movement. Easier said than done, but you can't argue the skillset is pretty specialized. Overseas they have an even larger problem with the equipment, though the COFs are somewhat broader and require more physical challenges.

[Flexmoney]

Guns that can't be bought at the local shop???

Compared to what???

Cowboy ?

Steel Challenge ?

Bianchi ?

Cops and Contractors aren't spending their own money on Rugers and Taurus'. The market for those gets pushed by the gun media. Kinda reminds me of the big 3 US car makers in the 70's....get press on it and stick it in the show rooms.

And at a basic level, the skill you need to win USPSA matches are to zip through 30 round field courses with reasonable accuracy on targets under 20 yards and great movement. Easier said than done, but you can't argue the skillset is pretty specialized.

Which part of that is the "specialized part again? The draw...the handling of various start positions...the choice of engagement order...the movement into positions...movement out of positions...shooting on the move...static shooting...reloads...accuracy...power...stage planning...execution...sight alignment...trigger pulling...building the index...splits...transitions...strong hand only...weak hand only...shooting around barricades...shooting while kneeling...shooting prone...shooting thru barrels and ports...negotiating windows and doors...tables and chairs...stairs...moving targets...static targets...reactive targets...ammo management...match pressure ???

[Ben Stoeger]

I think what he means is at the top levels, the winners, with the exception of Revo and Production, which we ignore anyway, use very specialized equipment that can't be bought at the neighborhood gunshop.

As a production shooter.. I am offended by that!

I cant buy ANY of my gear (cept the gun) at a local shop!

[Chris Keen]

Mags ............. maybe ear plugs !

[geezer-lock]

In matches in the last year I have seen:

Mini-popper at 35 yards

8” plates at 15, 20, 25 and 30 yards

Metric targets at 25, 50 and 75 yards

Multiple plate racks at 10, 15 and 20 yards

And just this weekend I shot 8” plates at 20 yards and standard poppers at 25.

Some ranges cannot accommodate longer shots and some (Ft. Bliss comes to mind) have a back stop in the next state somewhere.

I have watched a lot of match video and I can say that most of the time the problem with filming this sport effectively is that we put up so many vision barriers. We used to dictate shooting boxes because we didn’t have the resources to actually build barriers to keep the shooter from engaging targets. Small clubs use shooting boxes to good effect and I think they could be used to accommodate filming stages at a big match

David C

Edited June 12, 2006 by geezer-lock

[Vlad]

.. and then there are my stages with head shots at 18 yards next to no shoots .. weak hand only ...