Supersquad Makeup shots

[shred]

Interesting observation I made while watching the Super Squad World Shoot DVD-- they take a lot more makeup shots than other shooters. The guys with the extra shots don't usually win the stage, but at the end of the day it's not all about stage wins.

[driver8M3]

Interesting observation I made while watching the Super Squad World Shoot DVD-- they take a lot more makeup shots than other shooters. The guys with the extra shots don't usually win the stage, but at the end of the day it's not all about stage wins.

i noticed the same thing watching the 2005 limited nats video. Edited February 27, 2006 by driver8M3

[shred]

[split these threads out of Jake's no-Penalty thread because it's a question I've been thinking about-- I also noticed it in Saul's Open Nats video]

The SS takes a lot of extra shots. What does that mean? Does it mean anything?

Does it mean they call shots better that they automatically make up a D-hit? Does it mean they're running so close to the edge that they make mistakes all the time? Does it mean they are taking more risks or taking less risks? Does it mean the rest of us just think we're calling our shots?

[Vlad]

Maybe .. I'll just start taking three shots at hard targets just as insurance .. Wait .. thats not the right answer. I hope some of those guys post here to explain it

[TDean]

Nobody wants to miss, but let’s face it…everybody does.

Make-up shots are fun to watch, especially at the GM level. It tells you the shooter is fully aware of what’s happening, even at those hyper-speeds.

Do they initially see the miss during the sight alignment phase, or do they see it by visual verifying the holes in the paper?

If they see it during sight alignment, do they press the trigger again instantly, or shift focus back to the target for visual verification before making the decision to fire another?

There something called the OODA cycle (Observe-Orient-Decide-Act). This is the cycle the brain goes through when faced with a situation. You know, like when the fire alarm goes off at work, there’s always that guy who’s got the “what the heck is that noise” look on his face. You’ve already decided to act and he’s still trying to orient himself to the information he’s receiving.

Practical shooting is fun in that it can sometimes really challenge our OODA cycles. Shooting a plate rack (and missing) is a quick cycle because we’ve pre-programmed that OODA event. Some stages, however, can hang us out to dry in ooda’ville.

Do the top shooters have high megahertz OODA processors, or do they condition themselves to limit the dwell time within the cycle?

[eric nielsen]

Several Open nationals in the early 90's ended with a surprise winner and/or a surprise 2nd - 4th finish with some Big Dogs coming in 5th 6th or worse. Couple conversations I had with participants then indicated there was a lot of screwing up [going way too fast] on the supersquads and not knowing that other guys in the A-class squads or Ladies squads were out there knocking down the Supersquad's high hit factors.

Sometimes [brian can correct me if I'm wrong] the LimNats would have stages where 1-2 guys would shoot the whole thing with a target focus & open-gun-type transition speeds. Then the rest of the squad would follow suit, resulting in lots of no-shoot penalties among Supers and possibly some guy in a no-name squad using his sights & winning the stage.

I've also seen Super-guys make up steel shots with a .18 or so split and have exactly one hit on steel when the stage is reset.

So I'd go with Ragged Edge plus the Instant Calling theories - both.

Edited February 27, 2006 by eric nielsen

[Jake Di Vita]

Looking at the video it looks like there's an awful lot of make up shots. There usually aren't as many as it seems....especially when at nationals there were 19 shooters on the Super Squad.

I would say though that if a shot is suspected to not be on the target....in any way, it is made up. 2 tenths of a second if nothing compared to a potential miss.

I don't think it's being on the ragged edge all the time, I think it is ensuring consistency.

[George]

I agree with Jake. The math in long field courses and most speed shoots almost always favors picking up a D versus a couple tenths to do it. I just wish my pickup shots were measured in under a half dozen tenths :-(

I almost always know when I make an iffy shot nowadays, I just don't always react to the fact that I did it until I am onto the next array.

The big dawgs definitely recognize & react to shjt at the speed of light ;-)

[j1b]

I think there are several answers to the question.

Yeah, you have to figure that folks in the SS are more in tune with what's happening. They are in that squad because they are good. They also likely have a shot at winning the match so they are more focused.

So they call them like they see them. When a shooter is good they've done the whole "I think I saw what I needed to and so hopefully it's there" thing only to find a Mike in the walk thru. Most understand that if what they saw was questionable, then make it up.

Then, I think their experience helps them better understand the cost of a miss. They don't just know that the fewest mistakes win the match, they actually believe it. Believe it to the point that they are deliberate about clean stages. They still make mistakes of course, but they work their ass off to minimize them.

I know it's been a while for me since I've been there - but I know I probably had more targets with three holes in them (when I'd taken a make up shot) then not. But I don't regret any of those make up shots. The risk of the extra time was worth the insurance.

I know many folks in the forum don't agree with me on this, but IMO shooting at a level that enables an individual to win nationals is riding the line pretty close in terms of performance. I believe those that are there understand that and those extra shots help them insure they don't cross the line.

Last, we have high expectations of the SS. Like they are super shooters. Perhaps they don't take a ton more extra shots than the average shooter. Maybe the expectation is that they'd take less and we just end up surprised when they take just as many???

Just my $.02 on the subject.

J

[Loves2Shoot]

Jack, right on the money from what I see. To win with great competitors you can't shoot within 100% of your comfort level, but you do have to know when you didn't make an acceptable shot.

BEing aware and being able to react at hyperspeed is what seperates those who look down at the bottom of the pile from those in the pile.

[driver8M3]

Maybe the expectation is that they'd take less and we just end up surprised when they take just as many???

yeah, thats it. i actually didnt mean that they take more extra shots than other shooters (i'm not sure if thats true or not)...just that i was a little surprised at how many they did take.

[MarkS_A18138]

Funny you guys bring this up. I asked Manny about this when he was down here teaching a class I saw him do it and it was pretty sweet! He was showing us stage break down and when he demoed it he made up 2 shots on the stage. They were D's and he made them up with A's it was so quick that it helped. I AM not there yet!!!! He turn'd to me and said man I can't believe those 2 d's.

I believe at that level of the game the differnce between a D-hit and A-hit is major. I could be wrong but my wife tells that all the time! (that i am wrong)

[Jake Di Vita]

I have literally lost a match by 1 Charlie.

[Steve Anderson]

I think ( I typed tjonk anmd made it up ) Jake and Jack nailed it.

A D on a stage could be 5 or 6 places down on the SS alone.

When looking at my results from the 05 nats, I still can't believe how much a minor mistake hurts. You get whomped by the SS, a bunch of M's the good A's and the hot B's when you make a 1.5 second mistake on a 20 second course. If you have a Miss, it's even worse unless you have a SMOKING time.

When the times are close, points make the difference. Plus, you want to KNOW you have your hits, not think maybe they are there.

I see TGO shoot 3 on swingers a lot, btw.

It's generally a reflection of the understanding of the importance of points.

Second, it's a reflection of the importance of a clean, consistent match.

Third, it's calling the shot.

SA

[davidball]

Great thread and perfect timing for me . . .

I let myself get into a "speed" mode while practicing yesterday. Wasn't "seeing what I needed to see" and wasn't calling my shots (well, I actually was . . . calling "D's" and even a couple of Mikes - yikes). I was irritated with myself.

This thread is great confirmation and re-focus . . . it's all about the points. Get the points, get them fast, BUT GET THE POINTS.

[TDean]

So that's it, we've decided that points are important?

I thought Shred's original question was a bit deeper....

Something like, top shooters see their bad shots and make them up while the average is "surprised" when they're scored with a delta/mike.

[driver8M3]

So that's it, we've decided that points are important?

I thought Shred's original question was a bit deeper....

Something like, top shooters see their bad shots and make them up while the average is "surprised" when they're scored with a delta/mike.

i'm defiinitely not at the point where i know what shots need to be made up. heck, i think my eyes are closed half the time!

theres one stage on the 05 lim nats video where phil puts 3 on a swinger. saul zooms in to show 3 alphas on the target. good shooting for sure...but if he saw it, why the extra shot? other SS members routinely took 3 shots at swingers...though we dont see the targets afterwards, so its hard to know the motivation.

Edited February 27, 2006 by driver8M3

[XRe]

There's a few levels we seem to go through:

1 - Call shots?? What's that??

2 - Call shots?? I call shots on close targets by seeing where my holes are.

3 - I call hits and misses, some of the time

4 - I call hits and misses, and sometimes can call As

5 - I generally call A/Cs vs. Ds

6 - I know my points total without looking at the targets

At levels 4-6, somewhere along the way, we gain the wherewithal to make up a shot we're unsure of, or we call off the target (or, outside the acceptable scoring zone). At another point, we realize how important making up those shots/points has become to our match placement, and we do it more. Further, we gain confidence in our performance when we start making those shots up, and we begin to trust our shot calling more... Then, at some point, we just can't stand to leave points behind, and make up Ds compulsively

Something like that, anyway - I guess different folks will experience that to different degrees.

theres one stage on the 05 lim nats video where phil puts 3 on a swinger. saul zooms in to show 3 alphas on the target. good shooting for sure...but if he saw it, why the extra shot?

Phil may very well tell you himself - my guess?? Either he wasn't sure of what he saw and made it up, or he planned an "insurance" shot to begin with, due to the perceived difficulty of the swinger.

[davidball]

So that's it, we've decided that points are important?

I thought Shred's original question was a bit deeper....

Something like, top shooters see their bad shots and make them up while the average is "surprised" when they're scored with a delta/mike.

I don't know if we have decided anything or not. I think understanding the importance of points is sometimes lost on the "average" shooter. Eric observed that some at the Limited Nationals may have gotten into a "speed mode" at the expense of points and that cost them. The original post observed that members of the SS "take a lot more makeup shots than other shooters". My conclusions thus far (and they are bound to change with more input) are 1) SS guys understand the importance of points and seldom neglect that fact 2) SS guys are much better at calling shots so they know when they have made a questionable shot 3) they process the questionable shot more quickly (your OODA thing) and 4) react accordingly.

But if you don't emphasize points, even if you call a bad shot, one can tend to think "I gotta keep going to be fast".

Edited February 27, 2006 by davidball

[Jake Di Vita]

Even though there are a lot of make up shots taken....none of the members of the squad are happy that they had to do it.

It's simple math. More shots = a higher time.

[chuckbradley]

Yep points are important, but you cant give up speed to get the points either. You have to find the balance between the two.

Jake, I lost an Area 5 match to Brian once by .1146 of a point. And yes there was a questionable shot I was scored a c on when I thought it was an a. I was in business so I didnt want to make anybody mad so I didnt question it, after all whats one point? Well I learned my lesson big time that day.

1 ENOS, BRIAN A387 G L 1148.9212 100.000

2 BRADLEY, CHUCK TY25460 G L 1148.8066 99.990

3 HAWKINS, TONY A23221 M L 1101.9812 95.914

At the limited nationals in Pittsburgh there was a stage where i smoked the time. Figured I had a stage win. Jerry Barnharts wife was keeping track of the scores. She said Jerry beat me on the stage by fractions of a point. I beat him by .75 on time how could that be? He had more points than I did. He dropped like 2 points and I dropped around 7. I tried to get the stage results from the web page but the results are not there. It was stage 14 at the 2000 nationals.

Ok now we know points are important lets talk about the extra shots. Its something thats inside you that makes you feel uneasy about a shot that makes you want to make it up. Personally I try not to second guess myself and not take many extra shots unless they are planned. Yes sometimes extra shots are planned on swingers or long targets.

I figured for the most part I would not take extra shots unless I was positive it was a miss. You will find that alot of the make up shots arent even needed. They were wasted time. I figured that over the long run I would come out ahead by not taking the extra shots and saving the time. Sometimes it paid off and sometimes it didnt. Different shooters have different strategies.

I may be wrong but my take on Robbie is that he takes very few extra shots. He doesnt shoot fast but he doesnt waste anytime doing everything else. He doesnt have any uncontrolled double taps, he lets the sights settle on the second shot and almost always has really good points. The points will take you a long way. He usually doesnt turn up the speed until he has to. When he starts running on the edge is when you will see him have the rare mistake or turn in some unbelievable scores.

[dogdoc]

You never WANT to take extra shots, but when you call a poor hit or a miss, sometimes it must be done. You don't want to give up too much time vs. the points gained so it matters where you are in a stage and what you are doing. For example, if you are shooting in a static position, or barely moving, you have time to make it up. If you are engaging an array where you are moving hard, you must consider that to stop, back up, re-engage, and get going again could cost you 2 seconds or more.

As far as calling the bad shots, it should be done by seeing where the sights are when the shot broke, NOT by looking at the target. At that point you are static staring at a target instead of moving to the next array (or making up a shot per this thread ).

I would also go as far to say (because I've done it and I know others on the SS have) that when the unload and show clear command is given that most of the time (not all by any means) the shooter could stand right there and score their targets and be really close because they know where the sights were when they broke the shot.

[shred]

As I mentioned, I've been thinking about this some , and really appreciate the feedback from the SS guys.

One thing I think may be out there is truly calling the shot. I believe a lot of shooters, even good ones, even me, drive the sights over to the target, get them nice and pretty, pull the trigger and call the shot right then and there-- without really seeing it through. Oh sure, we'll see the sights jump around and all, but how many of us have shot at a piece of steel, missed, and said "I swear the sights were there"??. How many of us need a lot more make up shots on steel than we ever consider taking on paper at an equivalent distance? Is "I'm no good at steel" truly a problem with shooting at steel???

Probably the closest I get to the top guys these days is shooting Steel Challenge. I can, reasonably often, shoot Roundabout within a tenth or two of them. The wierd thing is when that happens, I notice that I'm actually calling the shot about the time I'm firing the next one. It's cool to finish up and absolutely know you hit them all, and with an excellent time, but I have to let so much trust in that it's eerie.

[Derek45]

How would you guys rate these DVD's

I'm thinking about ordering the 2005 Limited Nationals DVD.

Are they worth getting?

Thanks

[dirtypool40]

I have them all and I think the Lim 05 is the best yet.