tpe187 Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 Hello All, I was at the range today, chronographing some loads I came up with to shoot in my SIG 226 and Glock 22 in 40. I loaded them with 4.5gr of Titegroup, WSP, 180gr Zero JHP to an OAL of 1.125. They made major in both guns, barely with PF's of 166 and 168 respectively. Temp was 55 degrees. Then I got the idea to run them through my Benny Hill 2011 and see what they run. They made a PF of 169 and ran flawlessly. My normal load for this gun is 4.7gr of Titegroup, loaded to 1.185 with 180gr Zero JHP's. My question is why bother loading long? I know the two issues that I have seen people bring up are pressure and feeding. This load seems to be middle of the road as far as pressure goes and my gun seemed to feed just fine, albeit with only 100rds through it today. I have not tested the load for accuracy, but I will the next time out. Does the lower pressure make the gun feel softer in recoil? Does it increase case life appreciably? Is there anything else I'm not considering? Anyone ever experiment with this. There must be a reason everyone is loading 40 long. Maybe its a throw back to the old PF. Mabye the 1911 based guns don't generally feed well with the 40 since it was designed for the 45 ACP /38 ACP If it doesn't make an appreciable difference, I will just have a common loading for all my 40 S&W guns so I don't have to load for different guns. What am I missing here? Thanks for your thoughts Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihatepickles Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 People load longer to use faster powders without pressure problems. I have a Lyman, Hornady, and Norma reloading reference, and none of them list Titegroup or N320 loads for 180 gr. .40 S&W. Still, people like the recoil pulse of a heavy bullet and fast powder so they push the limits. So why are there so many people using Titegroup and N320? They're getting away with it by loading long. I would say that your 1.125 OAL loads are close to the max pressure, perhaps already above max pressure. I'm suprised you're not seeing any primer cratering or flattening. So if you can gain a measure of safety by loading long, I would say go for it. By the way, I don't read or hear a lot about feeding issues. How many of these stories have you heard? My .40 CZ TS feeds reliably at 1.175 so that's what I run. Any longer and I start having feeding issues. At 1.175 I haven't had a feed failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpe187 Posted February 27, 2006 Author Share Posted February 27, 2006 (edited) Hodgdon and Speer manuals both list Titegroup loads for 180gr bullets in their manuals. On the bottle of Titegroup, the recommended load for 40 S&W is 4.7grs with a Hornady 180gr XTP, WSP primer, OAL of 1.125 Both manuals list 4.7 as the max load, so my 4.5grs seems to be ok. On Jeff Maass site under 40 loads he states that loads for 1911 pattern guns will often benifit in feeding by using longer OAL's allowed by those type guns. Pressure isn't an issue, I'm getting "Major" velocity, feeding doesn't seem to be an issue. I have yet to test accuracy, so that might be a deciding factor. I'm just trying to avoid having to load for different guns and possibly mixing up the rounds. Does anyone out there just shoot standard OAL's in their 1911 type guns? Did you notice FTF's with shorter OAL's? Thanks for your thoughts Edited February 27, 2006 by tpe187 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbadaboom Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 A gun should feed factory ammo, Period! The pressure issue isn't.......an issue. My gun will feed everything from 1.120-1.20 without a hitch. I load to 1.195 so I can get them out of the Dillon cartridge box easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory_k Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 Does anyone out there just shoot standard OAL's in their 1911 type guns? Did you notice FTF's with shorter OAL's? Thanks for your thoughts Last season I put 2k of Fed AE 180 FMJ and 1k old fed red box (fc case) 180 hp thru my STI Edge with no issues. The last owner feed the pistol factory hardball only. I tried some ones long 40's 1.2 180 zero fmj and they would not feed from any mag I have. So far I put 20 of 1.162-1.165 180 zeros over 4.7 of TG with no feeding issues as of yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RH45 Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 Hodgdon and Speer manuals both list Titegroup loads for 180gr bullets in their manuals. On the bottle of Titegroup, the recommended load for 40 S&W is 4.7grs with a Hornady 180gr XTP, WSP primer, OAL of 1.125 Both manuals list 4.7 as the max load, so my 4.5grs seems to be ok. On Jeff Maass site under 40 loads he states that loads for 1911 pattern guns will often benifit in feeding by using longer OAL's allowed by those type guns.Pressure isn't an issue, I'm getting "Major" velocity, feeding doesn't seem to be an issue. I have yet to test accuracy, so that might be a deciding factor. I'm just trying to avoid having to load for different guns and possibly mixing up the rounds. Does anyone out there just shoot standard OAL's in their 1911 type guns? Did you notice FTF's with shorter OAL's? Thanks for your thoughts I have tried loading standard length, and long for my .40s. Of course, for the Glock, they have to be loaded short enough to fit in the magazines, but, for my two STIs, and my Springfield, I have found some loads that are more accurate loaded short, and some that are more accurate loaded long. You will have to play around with your gun to see what it likes the best. Good luck on your quest! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 (edited) To clarify, most folks that are loading .40 long are doing so because we are shooting 1911 based firearms (i.e. designed around the .45 ACP and its OAL). Sigs, Glocks, S&W's, etc. are dimensionally adjusted or geometrically designed (either through frame, barrel or magazine) to accept different calibers better than the 1911 (in competition). At 1.125, reliability, even with a ramped barrel, is an issue because the round being so short, the entry angle from the magazine to the ramp, to the barrel, at the firing rate we need the guns to perform to is not as reliable as 1.20-ish. Now a bonus to loading it long we can play with the powders more, based upon personal preference. If you like a quick, snappy recoil, VV 3N37 is great for that. If you like a nice smooth push, Titegroup is great for that. Somewhere in the middle is VV N320. Each powder has their own reloading pluses and minuses. For 3N37, some like it not only for the recoil type, but also it can safely be used in .38 Super if you shoot Open and Limited. One powder, two guns. Titegroup, while it feels great to shoot, has had some issues with metering or having a kind of 'static cling' affect to powder bars (from others...not me). N320, meters great, it's available, cheap and it's a VV powder and they support our sports hard. In the end, there are 1911 based firearms that shoot 1.125" .40 fine. Heck, my Limited gun shoots Speer Gold Dot HP's out of the box all day long (and why I've carried it concealed once in a while...20+1 baby!). For competition though, I want to make my platform as reliable as possible and the best way for most 1911 based pistols is to load them long. tpe187. As for loading for different .40 pistols, what would be a good pick-up for you is to not so much try to have one OAL for all guns. Rather, consider just picking up a Redding Competition Seating Die. You can dial the seating stem based upon the load that you want to do that day. For instance, when I'm loading for my G22 & G23, I spin the die down to 1.125. When I'm loading for my Brazos Limited, I spin it up to 1.20. Hope that helps. SPC Richard A. White, Senior Medic 249th MP Detachment (EACF) Camp Humphreys, ROK Edited March 27, 2006 by uscbigdawg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamar Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 Has anybody worked up a .40 major load (168-170 pf) using w231? I'm loading long and using large rifle primers. I have a large supply of 231 and would love to use that up before spending more cash....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuz Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 In the end, there are 1911 based firearms that shoot 1.125" .40 fine. Heck, my Limited gun shoots Speer Gold Dot HP's out of the box all day long (and why I've carried it concealed once in a while...20+1 baby!). For competition though, I want to make my platform as reliable as possible and the best way for most 1911 based pistols is to load them long.SPC Richard A. White, Senior Medic 249th MP Detachment (EACF) Camp Humphreys, ROK Did I just read that right? Reliability is more important for competition than for protection? I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but I just couldn't pass it up... -Cuz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 I don't reload my carry ammo, but yeah, when I wrote it I kind of smirked at myself and was just too lazy to correct it. 99.9% of the time, my carry gun is either my G22 or a 5" 1911. In both cases they're carrying factory ammo. As for a load for W231, you can do it, but I wouldn't recommend it. As great a powder as 231 is for seemingly everything, it is EXTREMELY temperature and pressure (i.e. elevation and humidity) sensative. Unless you plan on staying at the same place in the same conditions, I wouldn't advise it for anything less than say plinking rounds (i.e. non-practice or competition rounds). SPC Richard A. White, Senior Medic 249th MP Detachment (EACF) Camp Humphreys, ROK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RH45 Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 Do you mean SMALL rifle primers? All of the .40 loads I've made up were with winchester small pistol primers, and depending on how deep you seat the bullets will also change velocity. I was running 5 grains of 231 behind a Zero 180 grain hollowpoint. Has anybody worked up a .40 major load (168-170 pf) using w231? I'm loading long and using large rifle primers. I have a large supply of 231 and would love to use that up before spending more cash....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamar Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 Yes, Small rifle primers. I'm loading to 1.175-1.180 I'm using a 180 fmj bullet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 RD45, I use WSR, just 'cause between the .38 Super and .223, it's just easier to load rifle primers in the .40. They cost the same, so there's no advantage/disadvantage either way. 231 though is VERY sensative. It's unfortunate 'cause I love it as a powder. Meters great and seemingly works in like every caliber. I would NEVER run it in competition though. I've seen loads that chrono'ed at 175 in the SF Bay Area roll up to Reno, NV and spike up to 215. Not good for me (or anyone else for that matter). SPC Richard A. White, Senior Medic 249th MP Detachment (EACF) Camp Humphreys, ROK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RH45 Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 RD45, I use WSR, just 'cause between the .38 Super and .223, it's just easier to load rifle primers in the .40. They cost the same, so there's no advantage/disadvantage either way. 231 though is VERY sensative. It's unfortunate 'cause I love it as a powder. Meters great and seemingly works in like every caliber. I would NEVER run it in competition though. I've seen loads that chrono'ed at 175 in the SF Bay Area roll up to Reno, NV and spike up to 215. Not good for me (or anyone else for that matter). SPC Richard A. White, Senior Medic 249th MP Detachment (EACF) Camp Humphreys, ROK I've been hearing that, but, have never experianced it myself. I am presently experimenting with switching my .45 load to Clays, and have some Universal Clays I thought I'd try for the .40. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Universal Clays is a good solid powder for the .40. You really can't go wrong with it. I would suggest trying out powders like Titegroup, N320, WST and WAP (if you can find it...if they still even make it). As for Clays and .45, it's a great combination. My father loves it. Clays has a mild reputation of sensativity, but I don't recall anything to concrete. The biggest problem I know of is guys double charging their .40's with Clays and experiencing a VERY, VERY bad explosion with the upside being mag puking all the rounds out the bottom of the gun, brass exploding and going into every piece of exposed flesh and the barrel swelling the slide locked. So my only caution is to do what I do for all my loads (even my .38 Super and .223 loads where it's not possible to double charge) and that's visually see the powder level in each case. Good luck! SPC Richard A. White, Senior Medic 249th MP Detachment (EACF) Camp Humphreys, ROK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyT Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 The 14th Edition of the Winchester-Western reloading guide lists loads for WSF which provide the same velocity as 4.5 gr. of Titegroup with much lower pressures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishpinoy27 Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 (edited) I load 3.3 of TG with 175 Grns LSWC at 1.125 for my Para Ordnance s16-40 Ramp barrel with no hicups...PW is about 144.. Edited December 5, 2011 by fishpinoy27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzzieF Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 I started with a sig then a glock. I worked up a load with 5.3 gr WSF at 1.135" and moly 180. It worked and made major. After I got my SV 2011 , I tried it and ran just fine. I've been running it ever since. It works, no reason to change. I also tried a 200 gr moly at 1.135" with 4.3 gr of WSF and makes major as well with no pressure signs and same feeding reliability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deerassassin22 Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 (edited) I load 4.8gr TG with 180gr MG CMJ bullet to 1.135 no issues in my Eagle. I have a GLOCK 22 running same load down to 1.120 with no issues as well. I hear VV N320 is great powder as well anyone got any info? Edited December 7, 2011 by deerassassin22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjs375 Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 I load MG 180 CMJ's and use N320. 1.135" oal with 4.8 grn, its a shoots great and I'm making a 171 pf, out of my STI with a factory barrel. A friend of mine loads the same round but is bumped up to 5 grn to make 170 pf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 I load my 40S&W to 1.18 only. I do not need to go to 1.20+ At this length my Custom Wide Body runs reliably. It does not run on factory length ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seth Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 Honestly, I've been shortening my .40 load substantially. I started in the 1.2 range and have shortened it by ..045" over time. There's absolutely no need to load long in my guns, so why bother? Both of my 2011s will feed anything without any tweaking, so loading long is just a waste of powder. YMMV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
40S&W Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 (edited) I shoot long because it reliably feeds and shoots accurately in my gun. Load: Brass or Nickel cases 5.0 gr. Titegroup 155gr. Berry Plated HBRN CCI #100 Primers OAL 1.134 Avg 10 shot velocity 1085FPS Avg 10 shot PF 168.21 Brass or Nickel cases 5.1 gr. Titegroup 155gr. Berry Plated HBRN CCI #100 Primers OAL 1.134 Avg 10 shot velocity 1098FPS Avg 10 shot PF 170.22 Edited December 15, 2011 by 40S&W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bajadudes Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 When loading long is there not also an advantage in accuracy in that you are locating the bullet closer to the lands and eliminating some of the free bore? I have heard from some competitive re-loaders that ideally you should shoot for a 1/32" gap between the bullet and it making contact with the lands. Of course most of the time the magazine is usually going to be the limiting factor before you get to that 1/32 sweet spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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