IanLock Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 Hi guys, This may sound like a silly question, but why dont we see people using tuned full auto, or 3 round burst/ selectable triger groups on there AR's at 3 gun matches.???? Is it a cost issue, reliability, ???? just wondered Does anyone think this wound be an advantage??? What class wound this put you in??? or are they simple not allowed.???? Just curious??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 USPSA doesn't allow full-auto. Some 'outlaw' matches around here have a special 'class-3' division, but they don't seem to do that well, aimed fire being where it's at for longer range targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 I witnessed a full auto match once. Because of the no shoot targets interspersed among the available targets, the shooters were pretty much shooting one round per trigger pull for accuracy sake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1911user Posted February 12, 2006 Share Posted February 12, 2006 In the US, a legal full-auto is expensive since the ones legal for mere civilian ownership was capped in 1986. No new machine guns for civilians after that date and the prices have risen drastically enought that financial investors are buying them as an investment with no intention of shooting them. It'd be hard to get a full-auto AR-15 for under $10,000 now. Back in 2000, they were going for $3500. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 I want all my competitors to shoot full auto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 A couple years back a SWAT / IPSC buddy and I took his UMP45 to our local SMG match for Sh1ts and giggles. What a scary goat rope that was. SMG with pistol back up. Rules were no loading guns until you got to the line. That was about it. I have never been swept so much by people that had no idea what they were doing in my life. Guys were dressed up like Rambo, or Blade. Guys were shooting SMG's costing $5-10k and drawing a $300 taurus out of a $6 gunshow special holster. And no one could really shoot.....well, anything they had with them. It was pretty weak. One guy was self appointed tough guy, trainer, and set up courses so he could show you what you didn't know. He shot a silenced Sterling with a Docter, that was about like an air gun, he moved like something he must have seen in a movie, and I am not making this up, dressed in full costume like Austrailian SAS, beret and all. He was clearly his own hero, and probably the toughest guy he'd ever met. At first, it was all oohs and ahhs, and how'd he do that, as we couldn't get the UMP to run, so he was winning. Then we learned that we could transition to pistol at any time, and we started shooting one mag through the SMG and winning the stages with the pistol. oh yeah, we made friends that day, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 (edited) .There are matches locally for sub-guns that require you use full auto the entire match. They're run like an IMGA match I like these matches because they are fun, but I would prefer the option of switching to full auto when I see fit. At matches where I can choose to use full auto it's usually at 20 yards or less. At full auto matches if your gun simply works the entire time you will beat half the people there. There are often things like required shooting from the hip, a stage that requires you not let off the trigger at all while knocking down X number of bowling pins. Sometimes with things like shooting from the hip I just take the procedurals for shooting from the shoulder. Headshots and hostage targets usually screw with full auto shooters, not because the guns are full auto, simply because they usually seem to care less about having their guns zero'd and knowing how to accomodate for sight offset. I usually manage to finish in the top 20-10% at sub-gun matches, and you guys all know how much I suck Edited February 14, 2006 by SinistralRifleman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanLock Posted February 15, 2006 Author Share Posted February 15, 2006 Exactly... If for example you had a 3 round burts and single shot, trigger group, then at a a bunch of targets up to say 20 yards i think it would be a big advantage, then just flick back to single shot for those long shots., or anthing that requires a bit more pricesion. like a tight hostage plate or required head shot. Makes perfect sence to me.....! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 Ian, I believe that the BATF must be notified when and where machine guns are transported. I'm not sure since I've never had one, or had the desire to own one. If it's not belt fed, it's not interesting enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 (edited) Ian, I believe that the BATF must be notified when and where machine guns are transported. I'm not sure since I've never had one, or had the desire to own one. If it's not belt fed, it's not interesting enough You need advance permission to cross state lines. Transport within the state of federally regisered machine guns does not require advance BATF permission, but may be subject to various state restrictions. Edited February 15, 2006 by Rob Boudrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garryowen Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 Well I do, but I'm a jerk... http://www.cavalryarms.com/vids/M60.wmv and this.... http://www.cavalryarms.com/vids/garryowen-1A.wmv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 Gary, You clearly had fun at those matches! I wish we could have seen the targets that you hosed! Or shouldn't we have??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garryowen Posted February 16, 2006 Share Posted February 16, 2006 Gary, You clearly had fun at those matches! I wish we could have seen the targets that you hosed! Or shouldn't we have??? Not too bad, I made all my hits...I also always help tape after one of my "runs"..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 At full auto matches if your gun simply works the entire time you will beat half the people there. And being able to make quick reloads will put you ahead of many others. Ever see someone try to make a quick reload with an MP5? Subgun matches are a lot of fun. Like IPSC on full-auto. They are usually shot at pistol distances, with 30 or 40 yards being the longest shots. At rifle distances, you would be better off with a semi-auto. Most of the winning guns have been slowed down enough to shoot singles, even when set on full-auto. As I mentioned, many people seem to spend a lot of time on reloads. I tried using my safariland mag holders a couple years ago at the ISSMC subgun match, in order to help speed up my reloads. They worked okay, but you can see where a mag is getting away here. The following year, I made some mag holders out of a sheet of kydex. They were ugly, but worked pretty well. The guns with the magwell in the grip seem easiest to reload (like the M11 and Uzi), while those with the magwell forward of the grip (like the MP5 or M16/9mm) take a little more coordination. I know a GM shooter who ran the Knob Creek some years ago with his USPSA open gun to see "how much slower he was" than the full-autos. As it turned out, he beat the best subgunner by a wide margin. I've shot a few IPSC stages after a match with a subgun and compared the score to my time with a pistol, and nearly always end up doing better with a handgun. This is especially true on the up-close hoser stages. A pistol just transitions better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 I'm suprised that some of you full auto guys haven't also pointed out that with the 3-shot burst triggers you get three VERY different pull weights, depending on which cam you happen to be on at the time you try for the single shot. ALSO the trigger doesn't "reset" to 3 round burst when you let off the trigger after firing one or two single shots. It will meerly pick up where you left off. So lets say you burt fired at 3 targets and then engaged two flash targets and were lucky enough to hit them with the first round each time and now you go to burst fire at the next paper target. All you will get is a single shot. You will now have to let go of the trigger to reset it and yank it again to get the next 3. How varried is the pull weight?? Well I only have one example at my disposal so I can't say for all but it goes like this 1st round on semi 6.5 lbs second 9.75 lbs and third 11.5 lbs and then the cycle repeates....remember.... 3 round burst cam. If you fire one round semi and then switch to burst you will only get 2 rounds befor you have to reset by letting loose of the trigger ALL the way. This is one idea that should never have left the drawing board let alone factory, but As My friend Kelly says....I hope all the people I compete against use full/burst auto KURTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 if'n ya' want 2-3 rounds in the target, hittin' the trigger 2-3 times FAST is the best way I now of to get that done. A burst fire trigger sux hind teat in shooting matches ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 I agree 3 round burst fire control groups suck for a number of reasons. Real full auto and practice will serve you better. Garrett, consider the tripple subgun pouch from 3 Gun Gear, I have a couple and they work great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powder Finger Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 (edited) Gary, O.K. the 1ST one was 2 funny does RIO make you bring your own t-sticks!?? looks like fun Edited February 28, 2006 by Powder Finger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrett Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 consider the tripple subgun pouch from 3 Gun Gear, I have a couple and they work great.I might have to give that a try. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yukon delta Posted March 2, 2006 Share Posted March 2, 2006 The 3 round burst reset comments do not apply to all guns. The FNC does not have those issues. It's also the cheapest full auto .223 rifle available and by far the cheapest with a burst. Going price is about $7500. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted March 2, 2006 Share Posted March 2, 2006 No burst trigger system is going to provide reliable Alpha, Alpha hits even at close range like the standard technique of actually pulling the trigger while the sights are on the target will ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yukon delta Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 Agreed. Just wanted to give some more info on the burst options out there. You might be surprised what some of the slow fire subguns are able to accomplish. There are some shooters that can pretty much write their names in full auto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 It's also the cheapest full auto .223 rifle available and by far the cheapest with a burst. Going price is about $7500. I think that's the major reason why you don't see much of them in 3gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yukon delta Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 Understood. It's not something that should be banged around and dinged up like a common rifle. The value will continue to go up yearly at 10-15%. Class 3 is a whole other world unto itself. It's not very often that $7500 and cheap are used in the same sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 Yeah, I hear that! I've got over a couple grand into my race AR (before optics) and I do not baby it, nor do I care if I wear it's major parts out in a couple years. After all, it's fer' shootin', not fer' lookin' ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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