Would you shoot open if it were scored minor?

[Racinready300ex]

2 minutes ago, RobW said:

 

Here in NEPA Open is often the most popular division at locals. Bunch of die hards, me included 

 

Where do you shoot? Open is still doing okay sure. York has like 13 Open shooters vs 45 CO shooters. Ont. is the only place I see similar turn out in Open. You might see mid 30's in Open CO and LO. But if you didn't split the slide ride minor guys into two divisions it'd be no contest. 

 

Come a little south to ESPS you might see 10 guys, AAPS under 5, SMPS around 5. I'll shoot down in VA at like 757 you might see 2-3, PSS is similar at 2-3. Some of those might be shooting staccato's, not really open guns.

 

The only thing that can really happen as we add more and more similar divisions is each division gets smaller and the competition part of USPSA gets less important. 

[RobW]

This month at Factoryville and Hallstead, almost all Open division.

[Racinready300ex]

19 minutes ago, RobW said:

This month at Factoryville and Hallstead, almost all Open division.

 

Is that normal for those clubs?

 

It's cool there are pockets of old school open shooters still, even with the division as a whole in decline. Open is the OG of USPSA, and should be remembered in our history books. lol. 

[zzt]

In SE PA Open is thriving.  Last Saturday I was on a squad of 16 shooters and 8 of us were shooting Open Major.

 

When CO changed the mag length restrictions, Open Minor died in my area.  Many needed a dot and didn't like the 10 round restriction.  It is coming back again by accident.  Many show up with a factory pistol with built in comp, or ports and think they can shoot CO or LO.  Surprise.  You are shooting Open.  Happened to six shooters last month.

 

I shoot a lot of Open Major.  I even built a dedicated 1911 Open gun for SCSA.  I'll tell you that you need 150-155PF minimum to get the comp 'working'.  That is so close to major there is little difference.

 

At my home club, nothing over 140 PF is allowed for compensated or ported guns.  Only ten rounds in a mag.  It levels the playing field for our Outlaw matches.  I shoot 130 PF factory 115 in one of my Open guns (with recoil spring change).  Shoots fine.  Same POI as major.  Muzzle rises a tad more.

 

With all the current rule changes, if I were starting from scratch, I'd probably build a 2011 LO gun and just shoot factory.  Way less work.  Years ago, my eyes said no way with iron sights.  I put a dot on my CZ 75 TS Limited gun and shot Open minor in SCSA.  It was fun.

[Racinready300ex]

40 minutes ago, zzt said:

When CO changed the mag length restrictions, Open Minor died in my area.  Many needed a dot and didn't like the 10 round restriction.  It is coming back again by accident.  Many show up with a factory pistol with built in comp, or ports and think they can shoot CO or LO.  Surprise.  You are shooting Open.  Happened to six shooters last month.

 

To me, guys showing up with a gun that doesn't fit other divisions and get stuck in Open isn't open coming back. The gun market is shifting faster then USPSA is going to keep up. Those guy likely don't care about open as a division, they just want to shoot and they probably wont really take it all that serious knowing they're at a major handicap shooting against "race guns". 

 

 

40 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

I shoot a lot of Open Major.  I even built a dedicated 1911 Open gun for SCSA.  I'll tell you that you need 150-155PF minimum to get the comp 'working'.  That is so close to major there is little difference.

 

I somewhat disagree with that. Sure a proper open gun with major PF ammo you can really feel the comp stop the gun from lifting. It's very eye opening when someone first tries one. And a minor gun just doesn't feel the same way, it's instead pretty subtle. But, that doesn't mean it's not working. There are tons of videos online now of guys testing single port carry style comps on 9mm guns with factory ammo and seeing measurable reductions in muzzle rise. So they work, just not to the same level. 

 

Talking to some of the better IDPA guys in the area most have added ports or comps now that it's allowed. The ones I've talked to all say the gun is flatter, the dot settled down some and while it's not huge they seem pretty sold on them now. This area has several guys who were top 10 at IDPA nationals. 

 

I'm not making a case to lower major PF like someone above did. I'm not a fan of that idea. Keep major, major. 

 

[RobW]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Is that normal for those clubs?

 

It's cool there are pockets of old school open shooters still, even with the division as a whole in decline. Open is the OG of USPSA, and should be remembered in our history books. lol. 

The number of Open shooters is totally normal, the percentage was very high probably due to Nationals and I think the Eastern Lakes Sectional up in NY.

[shred]

Carry comps were a brief fad in the mid 1990s.  Nobody saw a need to create a special division for them.  This "I have a lever-action in 9mm, I need special division for it" nonsense should stop.  If what you have doesn't fit well anywhere, how about getting something that does?  

 

Despite people claiming otherwise for decades, from direct observation, after the first match or two, the vast majority of shooters that continue go get more competitive firearms, even if what they have is perfectly fine.

 

Open Major will be around as long as Open major shooters can see their name at the top of the combined results list.  People are always buying stuff to finish just a little higher in the results.  

 

[Racinready300ex]

15 minutes ago, shred said:

Carry comps were a brief fad in the mid 1990s.  Nobody saw a need to create a special division for them.  This "I have a lever-action in 9mm, I need special division for it" nonsense should stop.  If what you have doesn't fit well anywhere, how about getting something that does?  

 

Despite people claiming otherwise for decades, from direct observation, after the first match or two, the vast majority of shooters that continue go get more competitive firearms, even if what they have is perfectly fine.

 

Open Major will be around as long as Open major shooters can see their name at the top of the combined results list.  People are always buying stuff to finish just a little higher in the results.  

 

 

I agree 99%, I don't think you have to get stuff that fits well into a division. It's perfectly acceptable to shoot less then ideal gear in a division. If that means shooting Open minor with a new XC or shooting minor in limited who cares. You can still have fun, you can still improve and you can probably even win your local club match like that. 

 

But certainly we don't need another division for these things. 

[motosapiens]

On 9/16/2024 at 2:02 PM, Racinready300ex said:

The problem is Open is dying. At some locals here I might see 1 or 2 open shooters shooting true open guns. Then one or two shooting something like a XC in minor.

interesting.open is growing here. people who started in co or lo are now realizing that minor sucks. (note, i like minor).

[rishii]

There is nothing stopping you from shoot open minor right now, no need to change the rule book or add another division 

 

[Bakerjd]

I like LO. I also like CO. I didn't like open as much as I thought I would. I find very minimal difference in shooting a minor pistol like my PDP SF vs a ported minor gun of similar weight and size. 

 

 

[Bakerjd]

7 hours ago, motosapiens said:

interesting.open is growing here. people who started in co or lo are now realizing that minor sucks. (note, i like minor).

I've never understood the "minor sucks" thought process. Everyone I'm shooting against is scored the same as me. So there is no difference. 

[Racinready300ex]

9 minutes ago, Bakerjd said:

I've never understood the "minor sucks" thought process. Everyone I'm shooting against is scored the same as me. So there is no difference. 

 

It's kinda the same thought process as 2 on paper 3 gun. A lower accuracy requirement shifts the balance of speed and accuracy even more to the speed side and fast is fun. Same reason  some club matches become hose fests and people complain when MD's push the shooting challenge. 

 

The other thing is a fantasy division while not really a thing is vary much a thing. Everyone will tell you they look at the overall no matter what division they shoot because they want to see how they stack up even if no one else is shooting your division. Open major gives you the best shot at a good finish overall. Open and PCC shooters like to post videos of their a fantasy division win against even if the field is mostly Prod. 

[zzt]

I don't know about that.  The last match I shot was won by two Open major GMs, followed by a CO GM.  Interestingly, two Open major B shooters bested a slew of LO and CO As, plus a CO M.

[Racinready300ex]

22 minutes ago, zzt said:

I don't know about that.  The last match I shot was won by two Open major GMs, followed by a CO GM.  Interestingly, two Open major B shooters bested a slew of LO and CO As, plus a CO M.

 

Exactly my point. A shooter will likely finish higher overall with Major scoring and 170 mm mags then they will with a CO gun. Those Open B's would likely have a much harder time beating A and M CO shooters with out a scoring and equipment advantages. That's why a fantasy division is dumb, you're not competing on a level playing field. The deck is stacked in your favor when you shoot Open. 

 

Open is cool, I don't want to change it. But I no longer have a interest in shooting it either. Their may come a time when it's no longer relevant and maybe then it'll need to change. 

 

Limited is much farther along the death walk, Nat's didn't even have 50 shooters and only 8 G's. That's life support levels, almost as bad as Revolver. 

[shred]

3 hours ago, Bakerjd said:

I've never understood the "minor sucks" thought process. Everyone I'm shooting against is scored the same as me. So there is no difference. 

If your style trends towards spray-and-pray or shooting on the move, Major provides a noticeable benefit to your score.   Personally I'd rather shoot and move than sprint to a spot, shoot and sprint to the next one.  Meh.

 

 

[Joe4d]

5 hours ago, Bakerjd said:

I've never understood the "minor sucks" thought process. Everyone I'm shooting against is scored the same as me. So there is no difference. 

despite all the denials,, people look at the over alls,,, thats why they all buy improvements, even though in actual major matches buying improvement might bite you unless you are gunning for overall

.. I mean if you are top B with a Jennings, and you go buy a strato blaster 2000 just so you can now be last place A what have you accomplished ? Other than now you are a few rungs up in the overalls... Well until those few rungs go out and buy the stratoblaster 3000

 

Edited Thursday at 05:27 PM by Joe4d

[Maximis228]

Its funny reading all of these replies about buying gear to get to the top of the results. Open hasn't changed in many years and most likely wont for many more. The same guns you could buy in 2005 are still competitive today. As long as your gun runs and your dot doesn't break, it doesn't really matter what open gun you have. 

 

LO & CO however are in a constant state of flux with the ever changing options and upgrades. I see more money being wasted in minor divisions than I do in major ones. (Except those crazy dudes budling 40 limited guns still). 

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, Maximis228 said:

Its funny reading all of these replies about buying gear to get to the top of the results. Open hasn't changed in many years and most likely wont for many more. The same guns you could buy in 2005 are still competitive today. As long as your gun runs and your dot doesn't break, it doesn't really matter what open gun you have. 

 

LO & CO however are in a constant state of flux with the ever changing options and upgrades. I see more money being wasted in minor divisions than I do in major ones. (Except those crazy dudes budling 40 limited guns still). 

 

But dudes are still competitive with Glocks in LO and CO. So is it the division or the shooters? Brantley was top 10 at both CO and LO nationals with a glock.

 

My comments about buying gear to get to move up is more related to the major scoring. Major and no reloads in open at a club match will most definitely move you up in the overall standings with out needing to improve your skills at all. Has zero to do with the number of dollars spent. 

[Maximis228]

43 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

My comments about buying gear to get to move up is more related to the major scoring. Major and no reloads in open at a club match will most definitely move you up in the overall standings with out needing to improve your skills at all. Has zero to do with the number of dollars spent. 

Your average USPSA shooter literally thinks buying the latest canik (or whatever the hotness is for that time will) result in overall standing increases.  

 

This has been seen time and time again over my time in USPSA in the last decade. 

[zzt]

Who said no reloads in Open major.  We reload all the time.  I started shooting USPSA in 2016.  In all that time there was only one stage where there was no point where you could reload without losing time.  I needed two mags per stage when I shot Limited.  I often need two mags per stage in Open major.

 

I learned a long time ago it does not pay to slow down so you can complete a 27-28 round stage without a reload, especially if there is steel on the stage.  I plan a reload and rip through the CoF as quickly as I can.  

[Bakerjd]

1 hour ago, zzt said:

Who said no reloads in Open major.  We reload all the time.  I started shooting USPSA in 2016.  In all that time there was only one stage where there was no point where you could reload without losing time.  I needed two mags per stage when I shot Limited.  I often need two mags per stage in Open major.

 

I learned a long time ago it does not pay to slow down so you can complete a 27-28 round stage without a reload, especially if there is steel on the stage.  I plan a reload and rip through the CoF as quickly as I can.  

Correct amd this is how the top shooters do it. But in the context of this conversation we're talking about John doe who shoots local club matches and that's it. I see a lot of guys plan a stage that say 26-29 rounds with no reload. And then go around explaining that open is the best because they don't have to reload. Same in CO/LO with 21-24 round stages. 

[Bakerjd]

2 hours ago, Maximis228 said:

Your average USPSA shooter literally thinks buying the latest canik (or whatever the hotness is for that time will) result in overall standing increases.  

 

This has been seen time and time again over my time in USPSA in the last decade. 

I went round and round myself with everything from a glock 19 to some of the best builders 2011s to other factory guns, did all.the gear swaps ect. Then sold most of it off at the end of last year. 

 

Now I'm very happy with my PDP pro. It's fun to shoot, needed nothing but a optic plate and some mag extensions. 

[Racinready300ex]

17 hours ago, Maximis228 said:

Your average USPSA shooter literally thinks buying the latest canik (or whatever the hotness is for that time will) result in overall standing increases.  

 

This has been seen time and time again over my time in USPSA in the last decade. 

 

But that's not the fault of a division. You pointed out people can still be competitive with 20 year old open guns. But that really isn't any different then any other division. 

 

It's laughable to think Open shooters aren't trying to buy a better game too. They literally have the biggest equipment advantage in the sport. There is a reason you see Open and PCC shooters brag about a fantasy division wins and ignore the part where most of the field is running gear that's harder to compete with. 

[Maximis228]

7 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

But that's not the fault of a division. You pointed out people can still be competitive with 20 year old open guns. But that really isn't any different then any other division. 

 

It's laughable to think Open shooters aren't trying to buy a better game too. They literally have the biggest equipment advantage in the sport. There is a reason you see Open and PCC shooters brag about a fantasy division wins and ignore the part where most of the field is running gear that's harder to compete with. 

 

 

Yea and the 3 revo shooters at the next major you are at will have even more superiority for shooting an even harder division. 

 

Open is where this sport started (fantasy division wins...lol). Its the only division that doesn't change. If you shoot this sport long enough you will eventually shoot all the divisions.