cardiacjack Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 I recently completed my RO recertification. I passed, but one of the questions I missed was concerning a shooter in the US using stage props or range equipment to clear a jam. It was a yes or no, then which rule applies. Obviously, since the US was mentioned there is a US rule that applies. I Looked all through my Green rulebook and the online edition of the rules. No US rule could be found by me. So I answered no and applied rule 4.5.1 p.39 which states "The competitor must not interfere with the range surface, natural foliage, constructions, props or other range equipment (including targets, target stands and target activators) at anytime. Violations may incur one procedural penalty per occurrence at the discretion of the Range Officer." I do recall that a ruling was made stating a competitor in the US may use the wall or prop to help clear a jam, but I was unable to find a Rule that backed a yes answer. Where do I find this rule ? I have emailed John Amidon, head of the NROI but I havent recieved an answer yet. Any shooter out there have an answer . All a's in 06, A fellow shooter replied to me: Rule 5.7.1 In the event that a competitor’s handgun malfunctions after the start signal, the competitor may safely attempt to correct the problem and continue the course of fire. During such corrective action, the competitor must keep the muzzle of the handgun pointing safely downrange at all times. The competitor may not use rods, or other tools to correct the malfunction. Violations will result in a zero score for the stage.As for Rule 4.5.1 as long as the competitor is not damaging a prop or changing the stage design I do not see a problem with striking a firearm on any range surface; as long as it is done in a safe manner with the muzzle pointed down range. I then replied: Rule 5.7.1 seems logical but the problem I think lies in the question: " In the United States, can a competitor push their slide against a wall or prop to help clear a jam?" The question leads me to believe that a US rule is applicable, but which has stayed hidden from me. Tomorrow I am going to give USPSA a call to hopefully get an answer. I realize this posting is long, but sometimes the search for truth is. Any shooters out there got an answer. All A's in 2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tman33_99 Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 (edited) 5.7 is the right rule to refer to. Since it does not say Competitor may not use range props or obstacles, it is assumed that the competitor may. I.E. If it isn't there, it isn't a rule. 2.2.3 and 2.2.6 specifically call out for them to be strong enough to serve the intended purpose. 4.5.1 is there to prevent a competitor from changing the course or stage. I.E. moving targets, props, or other range items, or changing how they are activated or how they respond when activated. It doesn't prevent a competor from beating his favorite blaster against the a wall to clear a jam. He just has to keep it down range and finger off trigger if not on a target. Edited January 10, 2006 by Tman33_99 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted January 9, 2006 Share Posted January 9, 2006 Actually, the "In the US" is no longer applicable and the question needs to be changed. Thanks for pointing that out. The applicable rule is 5.7.1, and you may indeed use a prop to clear a jam. Hope this helps. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzmeister Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Actually, the "In the US" is no longer applicable and the question needs to be changed... Troy Well...it hasn't been changed yet (he exclaimed while looking at his re-cert test)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWLAZS Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Actually, the "In the US" is no longer applicable and the question needs to be changed... Troy Well...it hasn't been changed yet (he exclaimed while looking at his re-cert test)! Well at least you wont spend a ton of time looking for the answer--Like I did Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted March 25, 2006 Share Posted March 25, 2006 Yeah, I just turned mine in this month, w/ the same Q. AAMOF, I commented that I thought that this was going to be pulled (sorry, Troy). Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted March 25, 2006 Share Posted March 25, 2006 Actually, the "In the US" is no longer applicable and the question needs to be changed... Troy Well...it hasn't been changed yet (he exclaimed while looking at his re-cert test)! Looks like the May re-cert cycle is being heard from. But this was actually covered in depth both here and in Front Sight last year. If I wait long enough maybe someone will challenge all the questions here in the forum and then I won't have to read old rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 This question will be revised for the tests going out next quarter. We usually do a quarterly update, but the first quarter has been exceptionally busy. In fact, I'm in Little Rock, Arkansas, teaching a level one this weekend, and I know some of the other instructors are out and about as well. Patience, guys, it'll get done. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 Would this prohibit whipping out your knife and prying the round you loaded into the mag backwards from the chamber? We had it happen on our squad today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sargenv Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 Would this prohibit whipping out your knife and prying the round you loaded into the mag backwards from the chamber? We had it happen on our squad today. I believe that it woud since you are using a "tool" other than a prop and falls under the "no rod, tool, etc" part of the ruling. If you can't do it using props or your hands, that's where you're stuck. I would assume that's where you would say you are done and the stage would be scored with the appropriate misses, non-engagements, etc. Once you declare you are done, you can use any tool to clear the gun to make the firearms safe (ie unloaded, showed clear, holstered). Vince Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckbradley Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 I just mailed mine in yesterday. I answered it right but we might take this a littel further. If you use a prop to clear a jam, whatever the prop is doesnt , for that purpose, become a tool? What if the stage props included a knife, screwdriver etc ? Would they then be able to be used? The rule needs to be specific as to what can and cant be used. If they want to just specify you cant use a tool you brought to the stage but you could use a tool that was part of the stage then that would be sufficient for me. Right now its just vague and the question is sort of a trick question sinc eit leads you to look for a US rule when there isnt one and you have to conclude that since it isnt disallowed then you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzmeister Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 Actually, the "In the US" is no longer applicable and the question needs to be changed... Troy Well...it hasn't been changed yet (he exclaimed while looking at his re-cert test)! Well at least you wont spend a ton of time looking for the answer--Like I did Not quite true; I had spent alot of time looking before I turned to the forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the duck of death Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 Wait till he sticks a squib rod in the muzzle and reaches for a hammer. That should clear the area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 No knives, screwdrivers, etc., whether they are laying around on the stage or not. A tool is something you can hold in your hand and manipulate; the walls, ports, etc., on the stage are generally not hand held. So, your knife is a tool. The wall you are standing in front of is not. The question is being fixed, but it has not generally caused many problems, to be honest. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 It is this type of picking at nits that causes many tolook down upon us. You can use a PROP. It is generally acceted that a prop is a wall or a bolwing ball or a door or a chair or a car. A screwdriver or a hammer that is on the stage would still be a tool if you went from tightening a screw at the start of the stage to using it to clear a stcuk case. Yes, it was a prop when used as such, it reverts to the staus of "TOOL" once its use has changed from prop to assume start postion to tool to clear jam! Simple, but we'll probably need three paragraphs of legalese to explain it properly in a rule bok. Learn to shoot to win, not to read the rule book to win, we'll all be better off for it. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 Jim, If you think we are bad at picking nits try reading & UNDERSTANDING the rules of golf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waltermitty Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 So a hammer is a tool and an anvil is a wall..er..um..prop. Nevermind. Having supervised the flogging (by others) of certain range equipment with jammed, broken, or otherwise inoperable loaded firearms, I really wish this rule was a "...must be cleared by hand only..." rule. It may not be applied that way now, but if a gun is so jammed that the shooters hand/arm strength is not enough to clear it, whacking it forcefully against stationary objects with full body weight may not further the safety bias of the sport. I guess if I inadvertantly stopped the shooter because I thought I heard a squib, we could clear the gun rationally without the timer and give the shooter a reshoot if I was mistaken... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayWord Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 I tried several years ago, but there is a strong school that thinks the use of the edge of a prop is a real world situation and has been taught for years by many well known schools of pistolcraft. Done safely it is not an issue. I strongly agree with no tools since over the years I have seen shooter trying to clear squibs with range rods and shooters seriously cutting them selves trying to use their high dollar knives to attempt to clear jams. The last one was a shooter who seriously cut himself trying to adjust an extractor in a safety area. Many stiitches later the extractor was still there and blood all over the place. Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistral404 Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 I just took the re-cert also. I believe I answered NO. I defined the prop, wall etc as a tool, which it is in my opinion. I hope I did not flunk because of that question--ha ha ha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waltermitty Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 I tried several years ago, but there is a strong school that thinks the use of the edge of a prop is a real world situation and has been taught for years by many well known schools of pistolcraft. Done safely it is not an issue. I strongly agree with no tools since over the years I have seen shooter trying to clear squibs with range rods and shooters seriously cutting them selves trying to use their high dollar knives to attempt to clear jams. The last one was a shooter who seriously cut himself trying to adjust an extractor in a safety area. Many stiitches later the extractor was still there and blood all over the place. Jay I've heard the same thing, but that wouldn't be the only, or first, "real world" practice we don't allow in The Game. One-handed reloads come to mind... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 Thread drift, but on-line testing would be nice.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MI_Packer Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 I've probably got the least experience here. But, I was at my Level 1 RO school last weekend (I turned in my test). Gary Stevens was the instructor and he made a point (I think he said it both days of the class) to tell us that the prop was not to be considered a tool for clearing a jam. That it was taught in some circles as a real world technique for clearing (this was mentioned above) and the shooter could not modify the course while using the prop. When I was in the Police Academy we where taught to use the heel of our boot as well. That could easily turn into a 180 violation, so I don't suggest it during a match. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 So Gary says it's okay then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted March 30, 2006 Share Posted March 30, 2006 Actually, the rules say it's OK. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRT Driver Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 In the 14th edition rules (the red book), 5.7.1 says no "artificial" means to clear a jam. US 5.7.1 does not mention artificial means... Maybe this is causing the confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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