Noob question about shooting doubles....

[rayw1128]

Sorry for the noob question, but wanted everyone's insight as to how best to shoot doubles with a red dot... 

 

I look at the target and bring the red dot onto target, then I fire off the first round. 

 

Question for the second round, do most of you reaquire the target with the dot visually before firing off the 2nd round?  Or are you suppose to fire the second round off without visually confirming dot on target (just relying/trusting on your grip and return to zero)? 

[CocoBolo]

Response for a Noob.   Every shot has its time, a shot at 50 yards takes longer than one at one yard.  While the word Double Tap is thrown around a lot, it is actually a mythical unicorn for a Noob.   At very short distances it is possible to place 2 shots in the A-Zone without visual confirmation on the second shot, this comes from 1,000's of rounds of practice during which the operator can sense when the gun has returned to POA after recoiling.   If you shoot enough you will get there.   To be fair if you shoot enough you will just point shoot open targets at close range. 

 

The amount of time you might save not getting the dot confirmation might be .09 seconds and if you add that up against the loss of points you will probably go in the hole.    I the early stages concentrate on A hits, and moving and positioning where you get the most bang for the time spent.

 

The worst thing in a match is "A slow miss that hits a No Shoot".

[perttime]

Do what you need to do, to get the hits.

Even for the 1 yard/meter target, I like to see something. It might be just the silhouette of the pistol over the target.

For longer distances or risky shots around No Shoots, sight(s) will certainly be verified - or focus might move to feeling the triggger to ensure that the sight is where it needs to be. For every shot.

 

You might save tenths of a second by shooting fast. You can save much more by moving smart.

[rayw1128]

Thanks Coco and Perttime, makes perfect sense.  A miss (or hitting no shoot) will greatly offset any potential time savings.

 

Need way more practice to get to the point where I can sense return to point of aim without looking. 

[Blackstone45]

Ben Stoeger's doubles drill is great for this.

It has two purposes imo.

1. It helps you develop the grip you need to consistently and predictably return the gun after a shot

2. It gives you data on how far out you can shoot predictably

 

 

[shred]

The trick people often miss about Doubles is you need to call both shots in the pair, even though you shoot the second shot without taking the time to confirm the sights.

 

[Guy Neill]

A "double tap" should be two aimed shots.

 

A "hammer" is one sight picture and two shots.

 

Work on re-acquiring the sight after the first shot. Don't worry much about speed = let it happen as you develop your skill.

 

[Powder Finger]

11 hours ago, rayw1128 said:

  Or are you suppose to fire the second round off without visually confirming dot on target (just relying/trusting on your grip and return to zero)? 

You should have answered for yourself.  Or if you could do this why not do it for the first shot?

[IVC]

What you really need to understand is "calling the shot," not the aiming. If your limit on the split is the aiming (hard shot), you have to use different (standard) technique. 

 

The second shot at close range is a "predictive shot," where you do not wait for the sight picture, relying on your grip to bring the gun into "good enough" vicinity of the initial shot. However, you MUST "call the second shot" by registering where the sights are as you fire. This is not only how you train your grip to get you back on target, but also how you "know" whether your second shot is good or not. If you don't call both shots, you need to slow down to the speed of your eyes/brain as you fire the second shot. 

 

 

[rayw1128]

Understood, I feel that I do need to slow down on to fire the second shot.  I tried to do predictive shooting, but can't confidently call my second shot.

[xrayfk05]

If you are looking to save time, doubles is not it.

The most time can be saved by movement followed by transitions. Quicker splits is pretty far down the line, unless you go into extremes.

 

Not saying shooting doubles isn't a great drill, but only for the right reasons.

[shred]

A new shooter should use Doubles Drill as a Grip and Vision drill first and foremost.  Improving those will improve scores.  It's not until further along the learning curve that that working through how far out you can do predictive shooting is a big time saver.  Mix in some Accelerator drills so you aren't just blapping away at one target at the same distance.

 

 

 

[NoahBeretta]

Is the OP asking about the best practice for firing 2 shots in a match, or about the actual doubles drill from Stoeger? Those are two completely different things which is why you see two conflicting answers here. 
 

Shooting in a match, depending on the target, you’ll be waiting for a second sight picture or predicting that it will be where you want for close targets. 
 

for the actual Doubles Drill, you want to be firing the second shot as fast as you can possibly pull the trigger and using inductive learning to see what grip and vision gets that second shot into the A zone repeatedly for you. 

 

[IVC]

On 4/22/2024 at 11:50 PM, xrayfk05 said:

If you are looking to save time, doubles is not it.

...

Not saying shooting doubles isn't a great drill, but only for the right reasons.

 

On 4/23/2024 at 6:20 AM, shred said:

A new shooter should use Doubles Drill as a Grip and Vision drill first and foremost.  Improving those will improve scores.  

 

^^^ This is a great summary - the purpose of the drill is not to save a tenth of a second on the split, or even to get a consistent alpha on the second shot. Neither split nor score matters if you don't "see" the second shot, which is the purpose of these drills. 

[IVC]

On 4/22/2024 at 8:52 PM, rayw1128 said:

Understood, I feel that I do need to slow down on to fire the second shot.  I tried to do predictive shooting, but can't confidently call my second shot.

Keep on working on it. And don't slow down for the second shot to confirm the sights before firing, that would defeat the purpose of learning to call it. As it says in one of the books (can't remember which one), "you can't learn to run by walking fast." It's a different endeavor.

 

Try without target (you don't need it for this drill initially), firing into the berm, fast. All you want to get to is registering two "flashes" of the dot. Initially doesn't even matter where the second flash is, just that you can register it. Once you can do that, and only once you can do that, you can start fine-tuning the second flash to be consistent and "close" to the first one. As a side issue, the "closeness" of this second flash determines the size of target that *you* can engage with predictive technique. 

[Racinready300ex]

On 4/23/2024 at 2:50 AM, xrayfk05 said:

If you are looking to save time, doubles is not it.

The most time can be saved by movement followed by transitions. Quicker splits is pretty far down the line, unless you go into extremes.

 

Not saying shooting doubles isn't a great drill, but only for the right reasons.

 

You can save time that way, but if you can't shoot and start moving faster you'll just make the shooting you're already struggling with harder. I think learning to shoot is of massive importance. 

[JonasAberg]

In my experience, what the vast majority of new shooters need to work on is getting their grip consistent and recoil predictable. Solid fundamentals - that's where a lot of shooting speed comes from and when something isn't working, that's usually where you can find the solution.

After the grip, the next biggest problem I see is the shooter tensing up, often trying to force the gun and pulling the gun off target. Anticipating recoil is part of that as well.

 

Drills where you shoot fast doubles, in the beginning, isn't so much about speeding up but more about telling you what you need to work on. The hits (as well as misses) provides the information you need to make adjustments.

[CocoBolo]

It is the shoes!  Your doubles will never come together when you are wearing shoes that don't put you weight on the balls of your feet.  It all starts with the PlatForm, you cannot shoot fast off a weak platform.  For the new shooter I recommend spending time and ammo on things other than the elusive Double tap.   Platform, Reload, Movement, Positioning, Accuracy etc.  If you shave .005 seconds on a double tap on a 24 round stage and give up the easy points are you ahead?  No doubt BapBap sounds cool but get your points!  Tip It isn't how fast you get there it is how fast you get there ready to shoot!  Nothing worse than a slow miss. 

Edited May 2 by CocoBolo

[Racinready300ex]

9 minutes ago, CocoBolo said:

It is the shoes!  Your doubles will never come together when you are wearing shoes that don't put you weight on the balls of your feet.  It all starts with the PlatForm, you cannot shoot fast off a weak platform.  For the new shooter I recommend spending time and ammo on things other than the elusive Double tap.   Platform, Reload, Movement, Positioning, Accuracy etc.  If you shave .005 seconds on a double tap on a 24 round stage and give up the easy points are you ahead?  No doubt BapBap sounds cool but get your points!  Tip It isn't how fast you get there it is how fast you get there ready to shoot!  Nothing worse than a slow miss. 

 

Doubles isn't really about double taps or improving your splits. The reason you don't think it's a important drill is you're not understanding what it's about. 

[shred]

Doubles Drill vs "Double taps (hammers, whatever)" seems to be confusing everyone.  I'm going to close this and people can start separate threads about them to keep it straight.