Require Painting in Tier 1 Matches?

[shred]

20 minutes ago, schmidtg said:

That alone isn't enough to ensure the targets are at the proper height.  They might measure at the appropriate height where they are placed but not from the shooting box.

 

What @shred is referring to is almost impossible to achieve without a laser level because not all shooting range bays are perfectly flat.

 

Some ranges and matches will go to the trouble of having custom sticks measured out for each and every target, but nearly all the ones around here don't.

 

Even with a laser level, if the range slopes down away from the shooting box, you can get plates needing to be so high that missed shots will go over the backstop.  The rules really should allow for the plane of the range surface, but they don't, probably because Piru's bays all sloped upwards (the gongs on Outer Limits looked to be less than a foot above ground level) and nobody's thought much about it since.

 

We ran into this when I was RM for Area 4 SC and were barely able to make them all fit safely by using every bit of the allowed tolerance.

 

 

 

[Joe4d]

16 hours ago, Farmer said:

Pretty soon it’ll be, “naw we don’t need to paint”. Then it’ll be “Ehhh, the targets are close enough to where they should be”. Then will be, ahh that’s close enough on your time. And last will be the “How come nobody wants to come out and shoot? Bunch of losers…. They don’t appreciate all my hard work.  

you left out.,, "It's just a level 1"

[IHAVEGAS]

17 hours ago, Farmer said:

 Then it’ll be “Ehhh, the targets are close enough to where they should be”. 

Matches are a whole lot more fun if you don’t shoot the same stages over and over (and over, and over, and over). That is not saying that you can’t have some mix of the standard stages and creative stages or an occasional all standard match if that is what the local shooters like. 

[Farmer]

What I was getting at is, when procedures or people start getting slack or lazy it affects the whole run. Hey I’m one of those guys that just likes to have fun, mix it up, change up a new sequence but there’s also people trying to sharpen their skills to move up to the next level and I can see how they would want things set up as close as possible. Granted I understand that modifications have to be made to accommodate terrain etc. Years ago I saw the slide at our local gun club with trap shooters. Some people were busting butt trying to keep things going and as close to professional as they could, while a large percentage were just there to screw off, eat the food and get drunk. It didn’t take long and a large majority of the good shooters left and built up another club 25 miles away and soon started kicking ass. The local club didn’t know what hit them and were running around trying to recruit new members. It took that to wake them up and finally pull their heads out. Either that or close up shop. 

[Hoops]

@Farmer several people with a lot of experience with SC matches at all levels have given you detailed input.

 

I get the impression now that you are using this post to reinforce your frustration with your local club/match management.  I get it.  I’ve been in your position.

 

No matter how many times people comment on the rules for painting or how targets get placed, it probably won’t change how your local match is run.  Your decision may be do you shoot this match, find another club if possible or stay at home.  
 

good luck.  

[IHAVEGAS]

3 hours ago, Farmer said:

What I was getting at is, when procedures or people start getting slack or lazy it affects the whole run.

 

Yea, I took off on a tangent, sorry about that. 

[Dr. Phil]

Hopefully your mechanic will 'feel like' bleeding your wife's brakes before he kicks it out the door.

Maybe your heart surgery Dr. will say, "Meh, it says 3 stitches per inch in that artery. I have a golf date so I think I will do 1"

Or just maybe SCSA will come along and say. "We reviewed the scores posted at your club. You are no longer an M. Now you're a B which is where you would be if the rules were followed."

Rules matter.

Yeesh. 

4 pages in and some still don't seem to care.

[zzt]

15 hours ago, schmidtg said:

That alone isn't enough to ensure the targets are at the proper height.  They might measure at the appropriate height where they are placed but not from the shooting box.

 

All the measurements ARE taken from the shooting box.  Sticks are cut to the nearest 1/8" so everything looks correct from the box.  What possible reason would there be to cut sticks of varying lengths if you weren't measuring from the box?  Doesn't make sense.

Edited June 12 by zzt

[IHAVEGAS]

23 minutes ago, Dr. Phil said:

4 pages in and some still don't seem to care.

 

Really a lot of the traditional audience for steel challenge matches (kids, wives, casual shooters, folks that just like it for practice, etc) never will care or even join USPSA. Needs to be room for both types of shooters at locals. 

[Dr. Phil]

True dat.

But what about the ones that bust their tails to improve? Or build, modify, buy or repair their equipment all to shave off tenths? That practice the draw or the 1st shot a thousand reps? 

The ones that follow the rules and work their way to that next level? That take pride in doing it right, which they should?

What about them? Are they to suffer because the present MD doesn't care? Cause he is too lazy or distracted or late to know where the stop plate goes or how big the boxes are supposed to be?

 Maybe set up the stages out of square or with that target off by 3 feet because he 'doesn't care'?

I have been MD at 2 clubs. I have shot at 30 or more. Many of you have seen more competition than I can imagine.

But... I spent 10 months shooting 6 days a week (I try to give my close neighbors a day off) and made M in open revolver in 8 matches. I care.

I used to shoot at a club where the MD didn't care. He didn't feel the need because he was a volunteer. I would tell him when stages were improperly set up, (which was every match, multiple times). He labeled me as a 'crybaby'. Nice.

The rule ain't for those who are too lazy, inept or stupid, or even for the volunteers. They are for the ones who want to do it right. 

Same with all of the rules we 'live by'.

Try screwing over one of the pro shooters at your next match and see what their reaction is. Then tell them that some people will 'never care'. "Oh, it's just a popper that won't fall", or, "yeah, the stop plate is in the wrong place, order or whatever, but what does it really matter?" 

I saw a video of JM telling BJ Norris that a target on 5 to go was 2 feet out of place. They checked and it was. They fixed it. In Practice! Guess maybe in 4 pages you might find some other people who care?

Hope we can shoot together sometime.

 

[IHAVEGAS]

14 minutes ago, Dr. Phil said:

But what about the ones that bust their tails to improve?

As far as I know, in every shooting sport you vote on how long like things done by choosing whether or not to attend particular matches. Of my two local clubs one has gone full tilt rules Nazi over the last two years or so and the other is still casual, the first is drawing in more outside shooters while many of their regulars have just seemed to quit the second seems to not be affected except I'm seeing a few folks from the first club attend. I actually think you could make both groups happy with a bit of flexibility and empathy. 

[Dr. Phil]

I am sure you could.

That would make us all feel better

[Sarge]

I’m a long time MD of USPSA matches levels 1-3. I care quite a bit about doing things right. I insist steel be painted for every shooter at my match and when ROing at others. I don’t shoot steel challenge yet but if I did I would expect it to be set up and ran properly, including painting per the rules. If that makes me a rules NAZI then Sieg Heil !!
  

[Hoops]

Frankly, I would never have guessed that following the rules and the spirit of SCSA would even be a question.  Try that in a USPSA match.
 

If a match uses stages marked SC-101 thru 108 and is uploaded to USPSA.org then it’s an official SCSA match….rules and all.  It’s a dis-service to all shooters to be anything less and nonsensical to say otherwise.  

 

It’s interesting to me that some people posting don’t even shoot SCSA.  

 

[IHAVEGAS]

42 minutes ago, Sarge said:

I’m a long time MD of USPSA matches levels 1-3. I care quite a bit about doing things right. I insist steel be painted for every shooter at my match and when ROing at others. I don’t shoot steel challenge yet but if I did I would expect it to be set up and ran properly, including painting per the rules. If that makes me a rules NAZI then Sieg Heil !!
  

 

If you insist that steel is painted at your level 1 USPSA match, that is making up your own rules, which I'm fine with but it is a personal preference thing,  and if you are working somebody else's level 1 and doing things differently than the other range officers that is sort of against competitive equity. The big difference though is that you didn't move in on an already long time established sport and change things to suit a minority of the shooters. 

[shred]

13 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

The big difference though is that you didn't move in on an already long time established sport and change things to suit a minority of the shooters. 

This is the core issue I think.  The Mikes did their thing out in Piru year after year since the 1980s, a number of clubs bought steel and started doing the same at the local level. A couple decades later USPSA comes along and says "we own SC now, you have to pay us money and do it our way".  People get upset about that when they've been doing it their own way for a very long time prior.

 

 

[Joe4d]

17 minutes ago, shred said:

This is the core issue I think.  The Mikes did their thing out in Piru year after year since the 1980s, a number of clubs bought steel and started doing the same at the local level. A couple decades later USPSA comes along and says "we own SC now, you have to pay us money and do it our way".  People get upset about that when they've been doing it their own way for a very long time prior.

 

 

no one is making them pay USPSA money or do it their way, I also imagine most of their shooters wont care.. They also wont care if it is done IAW the SCSA rules.. 
The problem comes in when a match is advertised as "XYZ" and thats not what is presented. If you arnt following said rule book, you are being dishonest in your match publicity, and especially if scores or classifications are being submitted to some kinda national org.

[Dr. Phil]

41 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

If you insist that steel is painted at your level 1 USPSA match, that is making up your own rules, which I'm fine with but it is a personal preference thing,  and if you are working somebody else's level 1 and doing things differently than the other range officers that is sort of against competitive equity. The big difference though is that you didn't move in on an already long time established sport and change things to suit a minority of the shooters. 

 

 

CHAPTER 4 – Range Equipment
4.1 Plate Painting
All plates are to be painted white (other colors OK for snowy weather) for the eight official Steel Challenge stages and will be repainted prior to each competitor’s first run on each course of fire. At Tier 1 (club match) plates used on a non-official stage may be painted a color other than white but must be repainted prior to each competitor’s first run on each course of fire. Care should be taken to paint the edges of the plates as well as the surface.

Edited June 12 by Dr. Phil

[Dr. Phil]

8 minutes ago, Dr. Phil said:

 

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28 minutes ago, shred said:

 

 

40 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

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Edited June 12 by Dr. Phil
bad writing

[Dr. Phil]

37 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

If you insist that steel is painted at your level 1 USPSA match, that is making up your own rules, which I'm fine with but it is a personal preference thing,  and if you are working somebody else's level 1 and doing things differently than the other range officers that is sort of against competitive equity. The big difference though is that you didn't move in on an already long time established sport and change things to suit a minority of the shooters. 

The people/clubs who don't / won't / or won't allow painting (see O.P.) are the ones changing things to suit the minority of shooters. That is the crux of this discussion.

[IHAVEGAS]

17 minutes ago, Dr. Phil said:

 

 

CHAPTER 4 – Range Equipment
4.1 Plate Painting
All plates are to be painted white (other colors OK for snowy weather) for the eight official Steel Challenge stages and will be repainted prior to each competitor’s first run on each course of fire. At Tier 1 (club match) plates used on a non-official stage may be painted a color other than white but must be repainted prior to each competitor’s first run on each course of fire. Care should be taken to paint the edges of the plates as well as the surface.

Sarge was referring to his matches, "I don’t shoot steel challenge yet" this is the rule.

 

"4.3.1.7.1 Level I matches are encouraged to paint after each competitor but are not required to do so."

 

With Texas stars and other falling plate targets some folks prefer not to mess with handling the wet painted steel. A bigger deal than static steel painting. 

 

[IHAVEGAS]

4 hours ago, Sarge said:

The rule is a cheesy level I exemption. Painting after every shooter is the ultimate way of ensuring competitive equity and should be required at any match in my opinion.
 

 

I’m good with you going against the written rule at your matches, no dog in the fight. 

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

I’m good with you going against the written rule at your matches, no dog in the fight. 

In this case it is not against the rules. It’s not a shooter rule, it’s a match rule. 

[Farmer]

19 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Yea, I took off on a tangent, sorry about that. 

No problem. 

[IHAVEGAS]

7 hours ago, Sarge said:

In this case it is not against the rules. It’s not a shooter rule, it’s a match rule. 

 

If you want to split the hair I'm fine with that. I'm sure your matches are safe and well run and would be fun. IDPA and the new shooting sport (can't remember the name) specifically allow a bit of rules tweaking like that.