SCSA - PCC, RFRO and RFPO

[Hoops]

PCC……At every match we (RO’s) get questioned on why PCC’s require the hammer down step before flagging.  The answer is because it’s in the rules.  
 

RFPO…..no hammer down….no flag…Case or holster.

 

RFRO….no hammer down….flag…Case or secure in cart.

 

I know the argument about not dry firing rimfire.  But if PCC’s are to be flagged, why add the step of hammer down?

 

RFPO…..what makes it different from RFRO with no flag being required?  
 

clearly I’m retired and bored today so too many random thoughts

 

 

[rtl]

Well, you’re not alone. I’ve wondered about this too. Takes some extra time and care to no advantage, if chamber flag actually is put into the chamber and not just down the mag well there is no way to have a round in there. 
BTW also retired. I’d like to hear the reasoning behind this. 

RTL

[PractricalUse]

Many of us have wondered.  I think that the answer is floating around in the air from a meeting of the rules people and is a throw over from the regular USPSA rules.  Can someone shed light????

[Squirrel45]

I would believe the PCC is a carry over from uspsa and that's the excepted command they use. 

[Hoops]

@JodiH  care to add your thoughts to this rule and inconsistency?  USPSA vs SCSA?

 

BTW….it’s my personal opinion that PCC chamber flags should be big bore flags and not weedeater twine.  
 

thanks

[shred]

Belt-and-suspenders, minus rimfire shooters complaining about dry-firing (is that even a real thing anymore?)

 

In the old days the different firearm types never shot at the same time, so it was not a big deal (there were separate side-matches for rimfire pistol, rimfire rifle and maybe even PCCs), but once USPSA bought it, they kind of jammed things together any old way that would fit.

 

Seen lots of people throw weedeater line down the magwell and call it good for flagging PCCs, even though not allowed in the rules.

 

[JodiH]

Basically it's centerfire versus rimfire.  Dry firing a centerfire to confirm it's clear does not damage the firearm because the firing pin hits empty space.  While rimfire guns have a firing pin that hits the rim of the cartridge and as a result strike the outside edge of the chamber when dry fired.  So the rules don't require it for rimfire because it can damage the gun.

 

If you want requirements as to what is a chamber flag or not, please let the BOD and Zack Jones know.  I agree that a piece of trimmer line isn't the best, especially when there are a ton of chamber flags available and some don't go in the barrel but still hold the bolt back, but we don't mandate how a chamber flag is built in the current rules. 

[Hoops]

@shred @JodiH  dry fire rimfire not the question.

 

Hammer down on PCC after unload show clear….basically pulling bolt back a second time then flag.  So the question is why the hammer down on PCC before flagging?  Since a rule, is this step a safety precaution for something?  
 

I can ask Troy or send an inquiry to Zack but I was curious what others know about this.  
 

thanks

[JodiH]

PCCs must pull the trigger to prove the gun is unloaded, just like other centerfire divisions.  And yes we realize inserting the flag causes the trigger to reset, but the PCC has already been proven clear with the previous trigger pull and the chamber flag that is inserted after thay serves as an indicator.

[zzt]

26 minutes ago, Hoops said:

Since a rule, is this step a safety precaution for something?  

 

Yes.  A piece of thin trimmer string or a zip tie inserted through the port and down the magwell may allow an out of battery firing if there is still a round in the chamber.

 

Another reason- consistency (also with USPSA rules).  All centerfire guns are hammer down.  All long guns require a chamber flag.  All pistols do not require a chamber flag.  Rimfires are a special case, because hammer down will eventually damage the gun.

[Hoops]

25 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

Yes.  A piece of thin trimmer string or a zip tie inserted through the port and down the magwell may allow an out of battery firing if there is still a round in the chamber.

 

Another reason- consistency (also with USPSA rules).  All centerfire guns are hammer down.  All long guns require a chamber flag.  All pistols do not require a chamber flag.  Rimfires are a special case, because hammer down will eventually damage the gun.

I don’t disagree regarding magwell.  But to me twine in magwell is not a chamber flag.  If twine or flag were inserted in the chamber, I doubt there could be a round in there.  Yes?

 

Rimfire was only mentioned as a comparison because it’s a single step to put in chamber flag.  No one hammers down rimfire.  

[Farmer]

I also wondered why a chamber flag wasn’t used in a RFP being’s you don’t drop the hammer. Only problem I see is most won’t fit in a holster with a flag inserted. 

[Hoops]

1 hour ago, JodiH said:

PCCs must pull the trigger to prove the gun is unloaded, just like other centerfire divisions.  And yes we realize inserting the flag causes the trigger to reset, but the PCC has already been proven clear with the previous trigger pull and the chamber flag that is inserted after thay serves as an indicator.

Jodi, we (our match RO’s) are sticklers for safety and the rules in 8.3 Range Commands.  There is enough use of the words “chamber flags” to distinguish between in the chamber vs sticking something down in magwell.  If a PCC is uncashed with twine only in magwell the shooter will be told to insert the twine inside the chamber when we go thru the unload and show clear phase.  Sometimes we have extra big bore chamber flags to hand out.  A bolt closed on a chamber flag should be proof positive the chamber is empty.  I personally don’t like twine…. In any circumstance but that’s me.

 

I was just curious how/why the extra step was part of the procedure.  Handguns (thankfully) are not flagged so different from PCC other than both are centerfire.

 

Anyway, this is not a fall on a sword item…..just curiosity.

 

thanks

 

 

 

 

[Hoops]

3 minutes ago, Farmer said:

I also wondered why a chamber flag wasn’t used in a RFP being’s you don’t drop the hammer. Only problem I see is most won’t fit in a holster with a flag inserted. 

Most scholastic matches, and maybe Rimfire Challenge requires chamber flag in pistols.  I very rarely see a holstered Rimfire pistol.  Most, if not all are cased.  In fact, in SCSA most center fired handguns are cased.  Why lug around a heavy pistol.

[Farmer]

4 minutes ago, Hoops said:

Most scholastic matches, and maybe Rimfire Challenge requires chamber flag in pistols.  I very rarely see a holstered Rimfire pistol.  Most, if not all are cased.  In fact, in SCSA most center fired handguns are cased.  Why lug around a heavy pistol.

On the holstering I was referring to a previous discussion about shooting RFR & RFP in the same match and where shooters wanted to simply holster their pistol instead of bagging during the rifle portion. 

[JoeMKY]

2 minutes ago, Farmer said:

On the holstering I was referring to a previous discussion about shooting RFR & RFP in the same match and where shooters wanted to simply holster their pistol instead of bagging during the rifle portion. 

I have used a holster for rimfire pistol iron since I was using a Glock pistol and my Glock 17 holster worked for it.  When I first started now it is just easier bagging it.

 

 

[JodiH]

NROI doesn't require chamber flags be inserted in the barrel because many folks are worried the plastic will melt in the hot barrel.  We just require something to not allow the bolt to completely close and is visible externally.  My rimfire chamber flag works best inserted into the barrel, but the one I have for my PCC doesn't go into the barrel it just is a spacer between the bolt and chamber held in place by pressure of the bolt.

 

 

[blackss06]

The only reason to flag rifles is because they can be transported to or from the shooting box flagged. If we got rid of the ability to do that and made everyone case and in case their rifle at the line then we could get rid of the whole slew of nonsense and added time. 
 

There is absolutely zero reason to flag any pistol. 

[zzt]

15 hours ago, JodiH said:

NROI doesn't require chamber flags be inserted in the barrel because many folks are worried the plastic will melt in the hot barrel.

 

That is an old wives tale.  Any actual chamber flag will not melt.  I've been using one for years.  Even after a 64 round monster match stage where you rip rounds off like a machine gun, it doesn't melt.

 

"I don't want to hammer down because the firing pin may break"  Another old wives tale.  In all the years I've been ROing SCSA matches, I've never seen that happen.

 

I dislike string, zip ties, etc.  If drop the hammer for PCC goes away, I also object to NRA style chamber flags that fill the ejection port but do not go into the barrel.  There could still be a round in the chamber. 

 

The reason they are called empty chamber indicators is something goes into the chamber.  Otherwise, you don't know it's empty.

[Joe4d]

18 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

That is an old wives tale.  Any actual chamber flag will not melt.  I've been using one for years.  Even after a 64 round monster match stage where you rip rounds off like a machine gun, it doesn't melt.

 

"I don't want to hammer down because the firing pin may break"  Another old wives tale.  In all the years I've been ROing SCSA matches, I've never seen that happen.

 

I dislike string, zip ties, etc.  If drop the hammer for PCC goes away, I also object to NRA style chamber flags that fill the ejection port but do not go into the barrel.  There could still be a round in the chamber. 

 

The reason they are called empty chamber indicators is something goes into the chamber.  Otherwise, you don't know it's empty.

you must not own rim fires..
its not the breaking of the pin, but dry firing will very much peen the side of the chamber and it doesnt take much..

I agree with the bag thing,, when carbines were allowed they shoulda just made a few edits and made trigger guard covering case, the same as a trigger guard covering holster..

Edited April 11 by Joe4d

[zzt]

23 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

you must not own rim fires..
its not the breaking of the pin, but dry firing will very much peen the side of the chamber and it doesnt take much..

I agree with the bag thing,, when carbines were allowed they shoulda just made a few edits and made trigger guard covering case, the same as a trigger guard covering holster..

 

I own several rimfires and shoot RFPO and RFRO in SCSA.  You don't hammer down for rimfires.  I was referring to PCC shooters afraid of breaking the firing pin.

[Gregg K]

Unfortunately the rules call them a "Flag" and not a chamber flag. I once asked for a rule change to make it "Chamber Flag" and define it as something that actually goes in the chamber. I was shot down on the idea so this is why we have just anything stuck into the gun including trimmer line.

 

I will suggest a reason to flag rimfire pistols. Of all our guns a rimfire is the most likely to not extract a round, it is so common that they even made a rule to fire out the stuck round. We all have seen "cleared" guns go bang at the hammer down. A rimfire pistol is the most likely to get off the line with a live round in the chamber since we don't do the final check with the hammer down command. A chamber flag would insure that a rimfire pistol extracted the round but there again, only an actual chamber flag that goes in the chamber would do that.

 

If your gun gets so hot at a Steel Challenge match that you can melt a chamber flag then you are missing way too many shots and need to practice more.

 

 

[Farmer]

2 hours ago, Gregg K said:

Unfortunately the rules call them a "Flag" and not a chamber flag. I once asked for a rule change to make it "Chamber Flag" and define it as something that actually goes in the chamber. I was shot down on the idea so this is why we have just anything stuck into the gun including trimmer line.

 

I will suggest a reason to flag rimfire pistols. Of all our guns a rimfire is the most likely to not extract a round, it is so common that they even made a rule to fire out the stuck round. We all have seen "cleared" guns go bang at the hammer down. A rimfire pistol is the most likely to get off the line with a live round in the chamber since we don't do the final check with the hammer down command. A chamber flag would insure that a rimfire pistol extracted the round but there again, only an actual chamber flag that goes in the chamber would do that.

 

If your gun gets so hot at a Steel Challenge match that you can melt a chamber flag then you are missing way too many shots and need to practice more.

 

 

[GKB]

On 4/10/2024 at 5:06 PM, Hoops said:

There is enough use of the words “chamber flags” to distinguish between in the chamber vs sticking something down in magwell.

 

"Something down the magwell" is not legal as the magazine well must be EMPTY.  This includes the chamber blocks that insert like a magazine and protrude up between the bolt and the chamber.

 

See SCSA Rule 1.1 #1:

Semi-autos must have chamber and magazine well empty. Rimfire rifles and PCC must have chamber and magazine well empty and bolt closed on a flag and be cased or secured in a cart.