.38 Special First Time Load Development for Knockdown Steel - Help Requested

[Haywizzle]

Hello Wheel Gunners! So my GF decided to shoot the PSA Knockdown steel match in two months with her Ruger GP100 4.2". She had decided to reload .38 Special for the first time. She's been reloading 9mm for years on her Dillon 650 and she is dusting off the quick change kit and dies she's had for years to take the plunge. I have reloaded numerous pistol and rifle cases over the years, just never .38 Special, so I have a few questions. I've reloaded .44 Magnum/Special but I used bullet with cannelures so O.A.L wasn't an issue. I hope this ok in this Revolver forum rather than the the general reloading forum.

 

She bought three sample packs of Blue Bullets, 125gr, 147gr & 160gr round nose at .358 bullet width.

 

She would like to use CFE-Pistol as she is stocked up as it's what she uses in 9mm. We found Hodgedon data on the 125gr bullet and plan to do a ladder at starting at 5.2gr every 0.2 up at the listed C.O.A.L of 1.445":

 

We have not found exact data on the 147gr or 160gr but using cast data we plan to start at:

147gr @ 4.7gr to 5.1gr

160gr @ 4.4gr to 5.0gr

 

Questions:

1) For the 147gr and 160gr bullets, should we keep the C.O.A.L the same at 1.445" or increase it? I know a shorter C.O.A.L. will increase pressure but using Gordon's reloading tool it should still be safe. My thoughts is a shorter cartridge length could marginally help reloads? 

 

2) With these bullets, what velocities or power factor should we stay above for knock down steel? There is no calibration calls at this event. We will chrono all these ladder loads.

 

3) Any other tips?

 

125gr length = 0.6270":

 

147gr length = 0.7025":

 

160gr length = 0.7630":

 

Thanks!

[Toolguy]

Reactive targets are best dealt with by bullet weight - the heavier, the better. A slow, heavy bullet gives better knockdown and lower recoil than a faster, lighter bullet. A short cartridge will be easier to do fast reloads with. The coated bullets you show will work fine. I have had good performance with Blue Bullets. You want to stick with the 358 diameter.

 

For this purpose, I'm shooting 160 gr. bullets in 38 Short Colt brass over 4 gr. of 231. I have not chronoed these, but they are about the minimum load that will take down a big Pepper Popper in one shot. I estimate them at around 140 power factor. Overall loaded length is 1.150. The Short Colt case is essentially a rimmed 9mm, being almost exactly the same case length and volume. You can load these with a 38/357 carbide size die and 9mm powder funnel, seating die and crimp die if you don't want to buy 38 Short Colt dies.

Edited February 25 by Toolguy

[AzShooter]

4 grains of bullseye and the 160 grain bullet will work very well and will give you just over 800 fps making minor power factor with no problem.  The 160s are heavy enough to knock down steel with no problems.  

[Haywizzle]

Thanks fellas. We will focus on the 160gr for the reactive knockdown steel targets. 

 

Any thoughts on the overall length or an I overthinking it? This is a .357 magnum cylinder so loading longer shouldn't be an issue. We will probably play with c.o.a.l. for improved accuracy anyway.

[Dr. Phil]

For PSA Shootout I shoot 135 gr over 3.6 g of Win 231 in my 929. I get right around 130 pf. Their steel is usually not bad to knock down. By the 3rd day quite often sometimes you will see the taller stuff volunteer due to the changing adjustments over something like 500 shooters.

Any 130 or thereabouts pf should do it. Most targets seem to run about 6 or 8 inches and the bigger stuff is set so a 38 moderate load will suffice.

I know some who take heavier loads for the popper stage but I doubt it's necessary.

Too, you can watch a few shooters on a stage and know where there are any tough to knockdown targets. 

When are you guys shooting?

Edited February 25 by Dr. Phil

[Haywizzle]

Thanks @Dr. Phil! She wants to make one load for potential iCore matches as well so I think 125 to 130 power factor is what we are aiming for but knocking down the steel was the priority.

 

We've had shot it with a few friends the last 4 years from the New England / New York area shooting auto irons, auto open and PCC. This is the first year she's decided to shoot the revolver. We will be shooting Friday afternoon and both sessions Saturday. We hope to see you on the range!

[MikeyScuba]

4gr of 231?  Yikes. I have some steel rounds at 3.5gr with a 165gr and they are too hot.  I’m having extraction issues which is not something I ever come across in my 929 with lower PF loads.

 

At the PSA there are the 10” gongs which can be problematic if hit lower.  Otherwise count, count count.  The inline plates especially “suck” you into going fast until the “click….o”.  Best to maintain a sold cadence and count.

 I for one wish they allowed 8 shot revo in irons without the 6 shot only restriction.  But what can you do?

 

The Blue Ridge match is a lot more flexible but I did like the team shooting at Ontelaunee 2 weeks prior.  We are hooked on the knockdown steel.  It just requires an 8 hour drive from here.

[perttime]

Reloads should be a little easier with a shorter COAL. But you need to make the hits. Steel is an unforgiving accuracy game, so better see if a short load is accurate in that revolver.

 

I just made some test loads in .38, and went for 1.437 inch COAL. My bullets might allow even shorter but I found some data at that length, with the powders that I have handy

[Dr. Phil]

I am shooting Friday afternoon so probably will meet.

For my loads with a 38 special I cut down cases to .900. I  am shooting 4.3 of Win 231 and a 135 gr bullet.

Lots of people do and lots of people sneer at it but I find the loading more efficient at that length. Loading is probably quicker, but I doubt it would prove to be any advantage. I was trying to simulate the 38 Super an easy way.

Hope to see you there!!

When are you guys there MikeyS?

 

[MikeyScuba]

Thursday, Friday and Sunday afternoon.  We make a trip out of it.  I save PCC for Sunday, it’s so much fun not having to reload or count.  We start with revo Thursday, Friday open. 

 

[Dr. Phil]

One thing that people like about Blue Mt is the Auto class that's unlimited! My buddies shoot that.

One of the ROs told me a couple years ago that I could do something he couldn't. I asked what was that? He said, "You can count to 8!"

I shot PCC at PSA a couple years ago. Haven't shot open auto in 10 years or so now.

Good luck and hope to see you there.

[Haywizzle]

Knockdown is a blast! We have gone to Long Island, Wallum Lake RI and Ontelaunee as well. Revolver is really the only thing new to her this year. I will admit, counting is always a challenge! I changed my slide stop and mag followers on my open gun for the match so that the gun locks back because I was tired of hearing that click of a hammer or without a bang.

 

PCC is pretty fun, here was my best run ever at PSA:

 

 

Here was my best open run ever at Long Island:

 

 

 

[MikeyScuba]

Open unlimited is soooo much fun!  Plus shooting 2 guns per squad meant I crossed the border with 6 guns.  Dave is doing the Blue Ridge the week prior to the IRC with a 2day steel match IRC “warmup” on Tuesday/Wed.  The Blue Mountain is a week prior too but that’s too much driving or finding something to do for 5 days in between.

Haywizzle - sporty!!!  I don’t shoot PCC much but I find you need to  push/be aware of speed more than Revo for instance.  I was just happy mine ran ok, I changed mag springs prior to the match.  The ones MBX supplied originally didn’t work/ unreliable.

[pskys2]

Try loading the 160 deep and use a taper crimp slightly over the ogive of the bullet.

[Farmer]

1 hour ago, pskys2 said:

Try loading the 160 deep and use a taper crimp slightly over the ogive of the bullet.

^2X I seat non cannalure bullets just a bit over where the the bullet starts to taper and leave a gap between it and the case then taper crimp. It’s easy to check where the ogive starts by just setting your caliper to the diameter or a hair under and drop the bullet nose first into the jaws. Just mark the bullet where it stops and test your oal. 

[Haywizzle]

2 hours ago, pskys2 said:

Try loading the 160 deep and use a taper crimp slightly over the ogive of the bullet.

 

27 minutes ago, Farmer said:

^2X I seat non cannalure bullets just a bit over where the the bullet starts to taper and leave a gap between it and the case then taper crimp. It’s easy to check where the ogive starts by just setting your caliper to the diameter or a hair under and drop the bullet nose first into the jaws. Just mark the bullet where it stops and test your oal. 

Thanks fellas, we will try tapering into the ogive. Do you have a measurement for the crimp diameter? I'm just curious how aggressive you get. I'm used to just setting the crimp to remove the bell, in this case that value would be 0.379 I believe.

[Farmer]

19 minutes ago, Haywizzle said:

 

Thanks fellas, we will try tapering into the ogive. Do you have a measurement for the crimp diameter? I'm just curious how aggressive you get. I'm used to just setting the crimp to remove the bell, in this case that value would be 0.379 I believe.

It’s going to be smaller than that because you’re going over the ogive. I generally just give it enough to slightly press into the bullet or touch it. You can usually see a gap or lack of gap between the brass and bullet. Might have to play with it a bit. If they don’t shoot well at that length you can always go longer and just taper crimp the same. Over the ogive just helps hold them in a bit better. 
I have a question for you. Would a 22 be enough to knock down those falling steel targets? Might be a better target for steel shoot as you could definitely tell a good hit and wouldn’t have to re-paint. 

Edited February 25 by Farmer
Added

[MikeyScuba]

Crimp more than you think you need. Here is one of mine

[Haywizzle]

12 minutes ago, Farmer said:

It’s going to be smaller than that because you’re going over the ogive. I generally just give it enough to slightly press into the bullet or touch it. You can usually see a gap or lack of gap between the brass and bullet. Might have to play with it a bit. If they don’t shoot well at that length you can always go longer and just taper crimp the same. Over the ogive just helps hold them in a bit better. 
I have a question for you. Would a 22 be enough to knock down those falling steel targets? Might be a better target for steel shoot as you could definitely tell a good hit and wouldn’t have to re-paint. 

Okay thank you I will definitely try that out and see how they shoot.

 

. 22 LR would not be enough to knock down most of the plates, Also the match has minimum caliber for each division, which pretty much I believe is 9 mm and 38 special equivalent.

 

Thanks for the pic @MikeyScuba! Definitely more than I would usually do.

[Farmer]

@Haywizzle Mine look like Mikey’s too. 
Thanks on the targets. I was just thinking of making something for 22 RF just for fun. Those must just have a pin or hook on the back that holds them up?

[Dr. Phil]

I 9mm taper crimp everything up to 357 mag. I think that my crimp was .376 last time I checked it. I use the same setup/ crimp for my .355 9mm loads and my .3575 9mm/929 loads. I don't change the setup, just different bullets. No bullet creep in the revolver at all. I load 96, 105, 125, 135, 147 and some 155gr. Mostly now 125 and 135.

This same club used to do a rimfire match in the fall with stages of 70 or 75 targets, scaled to .22 and a par time of 90 seconds. Those were similar targets as the centerfire match but scaled to .22. Some targets about 10 or 12 years ago were around 1 1/2". Later they were a bit bigger, I guess to speed up the hit rates. 

[Haywizzle]

23 minutes ago, Farmer said:

@Haywizzle Mine look like Mikey’s too. 
Thanks on the targets. I was just thinking of making something for 22 RF just for fun. Those must just have a pin or hook on the back that holds them up?

My GF took some pictures of how Wallum Lake, Rhode Island Walls of steel has their sliders setup. I know the ones at PSA have a U-shaped bracket with a notch on the 6 o'clock location, then there's a bolt on the back of the target stand that the bracket sits. When it gets shot it falls off the bolt head.

 

 

[Haywizzle]

29 minutes ago, Dr. Phil said:

I 9mm taper crimp everything up to 357 mag. I think that my crimp was .376 last time I checked it. I use the same setup/ crimp for my .355 9mm loads and my .3575 9mm/929 loads. I don't change the setup, just different bullets. No bullet creep in the revolver at all. 

Thanks Dr Phil! We will definitely play around with a 9 mm taper crimped die. Especially appreciate the measurement for the crimp. I just had a thought because I have a unused Lee factory crimp die, we might try that before the Dillon to see what happens.

Edited February 25 by Haywizzle

[Dr. Phil]

I use the Lee factory crimp die actually. I also use the Lee U die to decap and resize. 

The sliders I made for my home range were angle with a bolt welded in the v on the back and a u shaped hanger welded to the plate. The bolt is just long enough to hang the target on. My plates were smaller than Palmyra targets, maybe 9 x 7. I made sets of 10 of the sliders and poppers and have 1 8" 6 plate rack and a 6 plate 6" rack. 

Some 20 years later, 3 Texas stars, a polish plate rack, a .22 6 plate star and a just finished 8 target star. This practice stuff is sure fun!

[Farmer]

@HaywizzleThank you and your GF for the pictures, now the gears are turning. (Can you smell the smoke?)

@Dr. PhilYes  I thought a dropping plate would work well for the stop plate in SC. 

Edited February 26 by Farmer
Spell