Meeting Agenda

[Dchassejr]

I don't think the BODs want to add another division.  Revolver as it is having low participation.  I'm not sure if adding optics would grow the division but it would certainly increase the longevity of the shooters that currently compete in the division 

[Makicjf]

24 minutes ago, Dchassejr said:

I don't think the BODs want to add another division.  Revolver as it is having low participation.  I'm not sure if adding optics would grow the division but it would certainly increase the longevity of the shooters that currently compete in the division 

  What if optic Revo was rolled into Lo/Co, scored minor only and recognized as a category?

  LO/CO(R) shooters could then compare finishes without skewing Revo scores.  Yet, as Jay pointed out,  several Revo matches are the gateway to the World Shoot for interested wheel gunners. Going full optic would kill that opportunity.

   Optic Revo is my favorite thing to shoot, and I've shot "Open" USPSA with both 6 & 8 shot dot round guns, so I'm very much for a place for OSR's to play together.  

  I think a category within LO/CO might make sense.

  All that being said, I think I'm going to shoot major Revo and ISR, RFPI until at least the Icore south regional in May.

 I may continue through the IRC, so short term, I have no dog in the fight. Long term, I'd really like to transition to OSR's for everything, as I always have a blast shooting them!

 

Jason

Edited January 25 by Makicjf

[BadShot]

Maybe we could just redo L10 to allow optics.  Then optic revos, optic single stacks, and optic production guns could play.

[Makicjf]

Just now, BadShot said:

Maybe we could just redo L10 to allow optics.  Then optic revos, optic single stacks, and optic production guns could play.

I thought that was a great plan, with the caveat Revo was scored major at minor PF to offset the capacity and reload times;  I think the last pole nixed that idea.

  I'd sign on for L10 optic for certain.

Jason

[Fishbreath]

A revolver category in LO/CO would be interesting. So also, I think, would a revo category in Production—just steal IDPA's gear rules. (Maybe ESR, maybe SSR, maybe some hybrid.) That gives people a place to dip their toes in with the six-gun that they already have in the safe.

[BadShot]

10 minutes ago, Makicjf said:

I thought that was a great plan, with the caveat Revo was scored major at minor PF to offset the capacity and reload times;  I think the last pole nixed that idea.

  I'd sign on for L10 optic for certain.

Jason

I like the major power factor idea.  Well, in listening to the podcast they wanted to be able to sort the results by people who shoot and don't shoot revolver.  That sounded encouraging.

[Makicjf]

4 minutes ago, BadShot said:

I like the major power factor idea.  Well, in listening to the podcast they wanted to be able to sort the results by people who shoot and don't shoot revolver.  That sounded encouraging.

An L10 Optic (R) button shouldn't be hard to program for someone who savy's code.

   I could whack it with a hammer, but that would be less than effective...

Jason

[Ice36]

I don't see mixing irons and red dots as equals is good at all, this would have effect on classification as high hit factors would change also it would add a lot more money to an already expensive class. It's not the same as adding a 400 dollar dot to a 600 dollar gun with factory ammo so I don't see many putting a lot of money into a revo to shoot it casually or to cross over just because of a dot. 

Edited January 25 by Ice36

[MWP]

We don’t need more divisions, we need better matches- planned and setup around the guns. When classic nationals was a thing, it filled. 3 single days of SS, and a single day of revolver. 
 

Revolvers are already allowed in production, let’s allow them in CO/LO. Just write in the rules “revolvers can mount dot to frame.” When there were only 5 divisions, revolvers could legally shoot 4 of them (not SS.) 

 

This is a huge NO from me when I get my vote. This is not the essence of shooting this division, the history, the mechanics of it. This will make things difficult for IPSC world shoot points, and will most likely detract new shooters from trying revolver as the bar moves yet another 400$+ higher. And I do just fine with a dot…
 

But, I’m not going to be sour about it if it goes through. Like bad taxes and laws, I’ll just work around the rules. 
 

If you vote yes, please please please say you want to allow comps and ports. This allows all the icore/wrc/bowling pin, and steel challenge guns that already exist to be relevant. The last thing we want is the same guns we have with just dots on them. 

[warpspeed]

If anyone has been paying attention to the PCSL lately, they seem to have come up with an amazing solution to all these divisions.

 

I'm paraphrasing here but they will allow local matches to recognize anything that makes sense based on laws or members desire but only have national championships for a handful, I think it was 4.

 

So want to shoot Revo optics ?  Or Open-10 because you are restricted in your state ?  Go for it but unless they have several hundred wanting to compete at the Nats, that is as far as it will go.

 

 

[Fishbreath]

13 minutes ago, warpspeed said:

If anyone has been paying attention to the PCSL lately, they seem to have come up with an amazing solution to all these divisions.

 

The embedded assertion here is that lots of divisions is a problem, and I haven't yet heard a convincing argument as to why.

[shred]

20 minutes ago, warpspeed said:

So want to shoot Revo optics ?  Or Open-10 because you are restricted in your state ?  Go for it but unless they have several hundred wanting to compete at the Nats, that is as far as it will go.

 

 

Yeah, as long as the MD doesn't say something like "yeah, you're the only one signed up in that, I moved you to Open".

 

The more divisions you have the less competition there is in any of them.  Not a problem if you're just in it for funsies. 

 

[Ice36]

30 minutes ago, warpspeed said:

If anyone has been paying attention to the PCSL lately, they seem to have come up with an amazing solution to all these divisions.

 

I'm paraphrasing here but they will allow local matches to recognize anything that makes sense based on laws or members desire but only have national championships for a handful, I think it was 4.

 

 

 

 

Not much of a solution. Here I would have to shoot my revo against high cap/open guns. Also a shooting sport with no unified rules has been done it was called 3 gun, they are now looking for unified rules.

Edited January 25 by Ice36

[Makicjf]

CO/LO. Just write in the rules “revolvers can mount dot to frame

  @MWP

This is the easiest solution to finding a place for dotted Revo 's.  Would you add an (R) category, or run heads up?

Jason

[Ice36]

12 minutes ago, Makicjf said:

CO/LO. Just write in the rules “revolvers can mount dot to frame

  @MWP

This is the easiest solution to finding a place for dotted Revo 's.  Would you add an (R) category, or run heads up?

Jason

I agree with you but this isn't what the board was proposing last night. The question was to allow red dots to be added to the revo division. So unless they reword it or ask for other input this is what's up for discussion. I would hope people would contact board members with concerns with how it was proposed and maybe there could be a good outcome.

[Mcfoto]

Interesting and topical for me. In November, my local club had “Revolver Revival.” For giggles we pick a dead or dying division to focus on. Since, I’d recently started playing in ICORE open, I was tempted to play with my dotted and comped wheelie. However, a couple days before the match I saw I was going to be the only 8-shot open shooter so I succumbed and brought my iron sight blaster. A rule change or a new division would be nice to keep me out of open, but I doubt that it would encourage more crazy low-cap players.

[MWP]

1 hour ago, Makicjf said:

CO/LO. Just write in the rules “revolvers can mount dot to frame

  @MWP

This is the easiest solution to finding a place for dotted Revo 's.  Would you add an (R) category, or run heads up?

Jason

No. You know what you did if you shot it there.

[MWP]

1 hour ago, Fishbreath said:

 

The embedded assertion here is that lots of divisions is a problem, and I haven't yet heard a convincing argument as to why.

Watered down competition. You’ve shot the IRC- you know what’s happening there. There’s a race in maybe 1 division, usually by people who can’t seriously race in another. We can almost always mail the trophies to the division winners using the sign up sheet a week out. Not very fun. 
 

I’m down for 30 uspsa divisions as long as they’re all at their own nationals. But that’s not the case. 

[IVC]

6 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

I'm not opposed to optics, but it seems wrong to have them in the division that controls access to IPSC (iron sight) Revolver.

 

I'll be voting 'no' this time, personally.

Wait at least until the actual question comes out - it is highly unlikely the dot would be required the way it is in C/O (and even that was influenced by politics at the time, involving a well known feud, if I recall correctly). Optional dot allows for iron sights to play in the same division. 

 

I will only vote "no" if optics becomes mandatory, eliminating irons for Revo, but I cannot imagine that being the plan. Optional dot or even R/O division are good to go in my books. 

[IVC]

4 hours ago, Makicjf said:

  What if optic Revo was rolled into Lo/Co, scored minor only and recognized as a category?

 

 

4 hours ago, BadShot said:

Maybe we could just redo L10 to allow optics.  Then optic revos, optic single stacks, and optic production guns could play.

 

4 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

A revolver category in LO/CO would be interesting. So also, I think, would a revo category in Production—just steal IDPA's gear rules. (Maybe ESR, maybe SSR, maybe some hybrid.) That gives people a place to dip their toes in with the six-gun that they already have in the safe.

 

Again, what is a concern if Revo is in its own division, as it should be based on completely different type of handgun? And what problem would be solved by using categories or merging into other divisions? 

 

Having a division available to shooters doesn't take away from anyone in any other division. Local outlaw matches already treat divisions more like categories and let people shoot whatever they brought. At any level USPSA match, shooting along someone from whatever other division doesn't change anything for either shooter. The extra time Revo shooters spend on the COF is negligible compared even to the time some top shooters take to Make Ready. 

 

It seems that we are pretending someone is going to steal the glory by shooting a low participation division and it is somehow going to be a big deal... Winning against "the other guy" is as meaningful or meaningless as they make it, nobody has to participate in their celebration/pity party. Seems like this is similar to uproar when PCCs were introduced, so the Open shooters wouldn't be at the top of combined scores. Boohoo. 

[IVC]

2 hours ago, MWP said:

Watered down competition.

...
I’m down for 30 uspsa divisions as long as they’re all at their own nationals. But that’s not the case. 

What exactly happens if Revo Optics shooter shoots the same nationals as the PCC/Open? Somebody gets offended because they don't want to have "those kind of people" on their squad? It's just a match, it's just a division, there are scores that can be sliced and diced any way for anyone to feel good about themselves, but there is always the percentage of the high score of the top shooter in the top division, no matter what your own toy looks like. That top score is how fast that show could go, and that's about it. 

[Racinready300ex]

15 minutes ago, IVC said:

Wait at least until the actual question comes out - it is highly unlikely the dot would be required the way it is in C/O (and even that was influenced by politics at the time, involving a well known feud, if I recall correctly). Optional dot allows for iron sights to play in the same division. 

 

I will only vote "no" if optics becomes mandatory, eliminating irons for Revo, but I cannot imagine that being the plan. Optional dot or even R/O division are good to go in my books. 

 

Optional dot is  a required dot. I'm sure @Fishbreath still wants to win. 

[IVC]

4 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Optional dot is  a required dot. I'm sure @Fishbreath still wants to win. 

Well, yeah... touche. Lol.

[Fishbreath]

1 hour ago, MWP said:

Watered down competition. You’ve shot the IRC- you know what’s happening there. There’s a race in maybe 1 division, usually by people who can’t seriously race in another. We can almost always mail the trophies to the division winners using the sign up sheet a week out. Not very fun. 

 

I was going to say I don't remember it being like that, but on looking at the 2022 scores again, I guess it was.

 

I'd say that almost every division is a foregone conclusion or close to it, at a mixed-division match; it's particularly apparent in revolver because there are fewer of us total, and therefore fewer samples on the skill curve to bump into one another.

 

For my part, I'd be shooting revolver whether or not there's a division for it—I'm at least as interested in how good I can get with it, as I am in direct competition.

[Fishbreath]

15 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

Optional dot is  a required dot. I'm sure @Fishbreath still wants to win. 

 

Certainly I don't want to be sacrificing the 5-10% a dot buys me!

 

Any changes wouldn't take effect until 2025, at this point, so at least all the World Shoot qualification matches would be irons-only.