Case Gauging Results - Bulk Loading 9mm

[Maximis228]

As pricing of projectiles/powder/primers goes up we all look at our failed round bins with more agony. This has caused me to look for ways to reduce my overall waste when reloading over the past decade. I used to get a 2-4% failure rate when I first started reloading. I didn't have my process down and I would just buy whatever was cheap at the time (circa 2014). As time went on I invested in additional equipment to help with processing brass and creating higher quality ammo.

 

Went from single stage --> Dillon 650 --> Dillon 1050 --> Mark 7 Automated 1050 --> Mutli automated set ups. 

 

Along the way I picked up a case pro 100 that was automated. Quickly I outgrew that unit once the Australian Rollsizers became available. Add the cement mixer to clean brass by the 5-gallon bucket and I have created myself a small commercial manufacture for 1. 

 

I tend to bulk load in the winter months while processing brass during the shooting season. I have compiled the last 3 bulk loading session results into the table below. I have also detailed my current process below.

 

 

Current Process:

• Dry tumble brass by the 5 gallon bucket in cobalt plastic tub cement mixer. 
• Hand sort brass with 100 round flip tray as I add to Rollsizers. 
• Process brass on automate 1050 (FW Arms Decap, FW Arms hold down on swage, Dillon die without stem, U Die without stem) 
• Wet clean brass.
• Load ammo. 

 

Im always looking to improve and curious what others are doing to get even better results with mixed range brass. 

[dtuns]

Those are some good results.

[Maximis228]

20 hours ago, dtuns said:

Those are some good results.

Thank you sir. But im always looking to improve even more. 

[VeilAndrew]

Hey Max, how are you gauging ammo today?

[Maximis228]

17 minutes ago, VeilAndrew said:

Hey Max, how are you gauging ammo today?

Using a hundo case gauge as I load. 

[VeilAndrew]

16 hours ago, Maximis228 said:

Using a hundo case gauge as I load. 

Well.. that seems like one hell of a manual exercise. Thanks for sharing, this is interesting data. Wish I could load that much that quickly

[Maximis228]

8 minutes ago, VeilAndrew said:

Well.. that seems like one hell of a manual exercise. Thanks for sharing, this is interesting data. Wish I could load that much that quickly

Im usually waiting on the press to fill a bucket to gauge while I dry fire. Then take a break to case gauge and then back to dry fire as the bucket fills. 

[shred]

For important loads (aka: not-practice), I catch rounds as the come off the 1050 and drop them into a Hundo.  The Shockbottle fits nicely across a Dillon Akrobin.

 

A few people are working on auto-loaders for them.  IDK if any are for sale yet.

[rishii]

Shred

if anyone does come with an auto loader for the shockbottle pleases post a link

[MoNsTeR]

What are people doing to get a TWO PERCENT failure rate??? That's enormous!

 

I very rarely gauge any rounds at all because my loads always work. On the rare occasion I gauge a few hundred rounds for an important match, my reject rate is 0.0%. I've been so puzzled by the existence of those 100-hole gauges. Buying one of those is solving the wrong problem!

 

This is not to brag or anything. I am legitimately curious what we are all doing differently.

[Maximis228]

22 minutes ago, rishii said:

Shred

if anyone does come with an auto loader for the shockbottle pleases post a link

B Team Engineering makes one. I dont love the slow output of it. The speed seems to be matched to his auto drive that he also makes. No website. Order thru his PMs. At a minimum its awesome to watch him R&D new equipment at a very rapid pace. 

[Maximis228]

1 minute ago, MoNsTeR said:

What are people doing to get a TWO PERCENT failure rate??? That's enormous!

 

I very rarely gauge any rounds at all because my loads always work. On the rare occasion I gauge a few hundred rounds for an important match, my reject rate is 0.0%. I've been so puzzled by the existence of those 100-hole gauges. Buying one of those is solving the wrong problem!

 

This is not to brag or anything. I am legitimately curious what we are all doing differently.

 

1-3% is far more common than most think. Just ask around at your next match. 

[MoNsTeR]

Oh, I believe it. I also see people bringing guns and mags that don't work, weekend after weekend. I find that puzzling also!

 

My point is that I have not found it difficult, at all, to achieve rounds-up-to-perfect results. Ordinary equipment, ordinary processes, same(?) components as everyone else. So what's the causal factor in differing results?

[shred]

I throw case gauge failures into another bin, then shoot them in practice.  Except for the really bad ones they work fine in most pistols.  With range pickup brass you get bad ones every now and then, even if just a cracked case.  If you're only loading the same brass from new in the same chamber, different story.

 

Case gauges (at least the Shockbottle ones) are made to minimum-SAAMI specs so it'll likely reject some rounds that will fit your chamber since most makers chamber with a max-size reamer.

 

I'd guess you're using a Lee FCD too.  Those will iron out rounds that otherwise don't make spec.  Downside is sometimes the ironing comes at a cost of accuracy.

 

[Bigzona]

49 minutes ago, MoNsTeR said:

What are people doing to get a TWO PERCENT failure rate??? That's enormous!

 

I very rarely gauge any rounds at all because my loads always work. On the rare occasion I gauge a few hundred rounds for an important match, my reject rate is 0.0%. I've been so puzzled by the existence of those 100-hole gauges. Buying one of those is solving the wrong problem!

 

This is not to brag or anything. I am legitimately curious what we are all doing differently.

 

I suspect perhaps its as simple as experience. I'm coming up on one year reloading. When I started my failure rate was astronomical, then it plummeted very quickly and continues to do so. I'm currently below 1% now.  Also, I'd venture to say the level of time invested in brass prep.

[CHA-LEE]

When people whine about high failure rates of their reloads I ask the following questions..... I am yet to have anyone having ammo issues also produce the correct answers to all of these questions. Usually they are screwing up one or more of these things leading to their high failure rates.

 

1 - Are you Roll Sizing or Push Through Sizing the brass before you reload it?

2 - Are you continually changing manufactures or types of Bullets, Brass, Primers?

3 - Is the TV, Radio, Podcast, or other Distracting thing "On" while you are reloading?

4 - When was the last time you replaced your reloading Dies?

5 - Does your press have regular stoppages during your reloading session?

6 - Are you in a hurry when you reload the ammo?

7 - Do you inspect the Brass before you reload it?

8 - When was the last time you fully disassembled, cleaned, assembled and calibrated your press?

9 - When was the last time you confirmed that each position/stage of the shell plate was actually doing what it should in the middle of a reloading session?

10 - Are you actively paying attention to what is going on while reloading?

[RangerTrace]

I'm jealous of your process and volume for sure.  Since I went to the U-die years ago, it's a very rare experience to get a round to fail the hundo.

[blueeyedme]

On 12/20/2023 at 3:58 PM, rishii said:

Shred

if anyone does come with an auto loader for the shockbottle pleases post a link

 

Range Panda has a prototype currently being tested.  Similar to this one ipsc4you had available in Greece which does not fit the Shockbottle.

https://www.facebook.com/robert.engh.3/videos/643163097705227

[MoNsTeR]

On 12/20/2023 at 3:48 PM, CHA-LEE said:

When people whine about high failure rates of their reloads I ask the following questions..... I am yet to have anyone having ammo issues also produce the correct answers to all of these questions. Usually they are screwing up one or more of these things leading to their high failure rates.

 

1 - Are you Roll Sizing or Push Through Sizing the brass before you reload it?

2 - Are you continually changing manufactures or types of Bullets, Brass, Primers?

3 - Is the TV, Radio, Podcast, or other Distracting thing "On" while you are reloading?

4 - When was the last time you replaced your reloading Dies?

5 - Does your press have regular stoppages during your reloading session?

6 - Are you in a hurry when you reload the ammo?

7 - Do you inspect the Brass before you reload it?

8 - When was the last time you fully disassembled, cleaned, assembled and calibrated your press?

9 - When was the last time you confirmed that each position/stage of the shell plate was actually doing what it should in the middle of a reloading session?

10 - Are you actively paying attention to what is going on while reloading?

Interesting!

I would give wrong answers to 4 or 5 of those.

 

I like the concept but my list would be a bit different:

- Do you have a 1050? It's worth it!

- Are you using the Dillon sizing die? Consider switching to a Lee (it's cheap!).

- Have you at least tried the Lee FCD? Lots of people don't like it for whatever reason, but I've found it to be a win with jacketed bullets in every caliber, and a win in 9mm regardless of bullet type. (Again: cheap!)

- Are you treating gauge failures as an inevitability, or as a negative Quality Assurance signal? If you're happy with 2% it's not going to get lower on it's own.

 

Definitely agree that "not hurrying" and "actively paying attention" are critical. Inspecting brass is valuable but I do it pretty casually, just during sorting. I don't have a roll-sizer or push-through but I do generally buy bulk roll-sized brass. I do listen to podcasts while loading.

[IVC]

On 12/20/2023 at 1:30 PM, MoNsTeR said:

My point is that I have not found it difficult, at all, to achieve rounds-up-to-perfect results. Ordinary equipment, ordinary processes, same(?) components as everyone else. So what's the causal factor in differing results?

Case-gauging is just another QC step where you inspect the brass. No different than sorting out similar calibers or visual inspection of the random range pickup - unless you have a machine, it's a manual process where you look at each one and quickly classify into go/no-go. 

 

The real question is: what are your steps *prior* to running the press? Any preprocessing merely moves the QC steps from the backend to the front end. 

 

I would bet that at some point you have to remove an odd .38SC/.38 Super or 380 out of your 9mm stash, or an odd 357 Sig out of your .40. Not to mention the annoying .38 Super if you reload .38SC (Dillon to this day lists incorrect shellplate for 38SC). But apart from caliber sorting, you also have to cull brass that is at the end of its useful life, those with dented or pitted walls, any type of crack at the mouth, any other deformity from, e.g., stepping on it, etc. Then you have brass from all sorts of manufacturers with visibly different dimensions around the rim. All of this will create potential problems in the final round. 

 

Given that the mixed brass is by far the most variable part of any reloading setup, it must be addressed *somewhere*. The last step of case-gauging is a "catch all" test to ensure smooth operation. For example, case gauging will catch cases that cracked during mouth expansion or bullet seating, something you can't catch in preprocessing. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by IVC
spelling

[IVC]

On 12/18/2023 at 2:06 PM, Maximis228 said:

Wet clean brass.

This is the only step I'm not sure about - other than aesthetics, what's the purpose? Do you think your rejection rate would go up if you didn't? 

[Maximis228]

1 minute ago, IVC said:

This is the only step I'm not sure about - other than aesthetics, what's the purpose? Do you think your rejection rate would go up if you didn't? 

That’s literally it. Aesthetics. The dry tumble is plenty. 

[Maximis228]

6 minutes ago, IVC said:

Case-gauging is just another QC step where you inspect the brass. No different than sorting out similar calibers or visual inspection of the random range pickup - unless you have a machine, it's a manual process where you look at each one and quickly classify into go/no-go. 

 The bulk of my sorting for 9mm is done when adding brass to the case feeder on my rollsizers. I use a 40 cal ammo tray with visually sort 9mm for issues. This gets the random 380s, 38 s/c, and other random debris/misc calibers. 

[IVC]

A few months back I started reloading 223 (for some local matches, already had 1050, so it was a matter of both curiosity and the ability to have a load that matches my rifle). Rifle rounds are quite different from pistol and I went through the setup process slowly and systematically. Initially, I over-lubed and ended up with small dents on the neck - easily fixed. But I still had a lot of failures in the final gauge (it's not a hundo, it only takes 7 rounds at the time). Then I got the more precise rifle gauge with min/max case length and realized that my brass wasn't consistent. After looking into it, turns out the sizing die needs to be *over* cammed, that's just how the design works. It takes away any shellplate wiggle room, ensures full length sizing works correctly and, most importantly, gets the shoulder within the spec. Once adjusted like this, it's practically 0 rejection rate at the gauge (but I still gauge all the ammo).

 

This not only opened my eyes to the issues with rifle rounds, but it also made me readjust the pistol sizing dies. And, voila, suddenly there are no more "barely" passing rounds, it all fits perfectly in a hundo. Unless the case is defective, or there is another obvious problem. Note that I have a Roll-sizer and size all my brass, and I also used the U-dies on some setups to try to minimize gauging issues, but it wasn't until I figured out that the sizing die needs to press the shell solidly that I got around the problem. 

[ysrracer]

Dillon dies stink. I loaded 100 rounds, and not one of them would pass the gauge test.

.