Safety table

[dmshozer1]

Shooter was at the safety table practicing his draw before the match had started,

Table was in a pit where there was a stage setup. The table was pointed at the side berm up range from where the stage was.

He then turned downrange and seemed to be drawing at a stage target while adjusting his dot brightness. He did this a number of times.

There was no one looking over the stage at the time so he was not pointing his gun at anyone.

Any rule against doing this?

[motosapiens]

the rules only say the firearm must be pointed in a safe direction.

 

[Schutzenmeister]

The applicable rule is quoted below ...

 

Quote

2.4.1  Competitors are permitted to use the Safety Areas for the activities stated below provided they remain within the boundaries of the  Safety Area and the firearm is pointed in a safe direction. Violations are subject to match disqualification (see Rules 10.5.1 & 10.5.12)

 

Conceivably, one could argue he pointed the firearm in an unsafe direction thereby violating the rules for a safety table.  However, I would be more likely to educate him this is not acceptable and only disqualify him if he does it again.

[jwhittin]

19 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

the rules only say the firearm must be pointed in a safe direction.

 

 

Accept at a Level II and higher match.

 

2.4 Safety Areas The host organization is responsible for the construction and placement of a sufficient number of Safety Areas for the match. They should be conveniently placed and easily identified with signs. At Level II or higher matches, Safety Areas must include a table with the safe direction and boundaries clearly shown.

 

 

[motosapiens]

3 minutes ago, jwhittin said:

 

Accept at a Level II and higher match.

 

2.4 Safety Areas The host organization is responsible for the construction and placement of a sufficient number of Safety Areas for the match. They should be conveniently placed and easily identified with signs. At Level II or higher matches, Safety Areas must include a table with the safe direction and boundaries clearly shown.

 

 

good catch. I overlooked that because of the pagination, lol.

 

At a local match it seems like most people would agree that the gun should be pointed into a berm, and not at any people. imho, downrange when the bay is empty is a perfectly safe direction.

[jwhittin]

I wonder why they excluded local matches.  I would have to agree with you since there doesn't seem to a specific rule that would apply for a local match (assuming it was a local match the OP was talking about). 

 

Very timely discussion for me since we are getting ready to host a Level II match and are discussing Safety Tables in each berm.

Edited August 7, 2023 by jwhittin

[jwhittin]

What if this was a local match and the "Safe Direction" was clearly shown as only the side berm?  I would have to issue a DQ then. 

[IVC]

The problem here is "safe direction" - most safety tables will have a regulation fault line around them, but the safe direction will be assumed to be the berm in front of the table and the safe direction won't be clearly marked. It should be. Precisely for the reasons in the OP. 

 

If the safe direction is not marked, it comes down to the judgment call by the match officials. In this case, I wouldn't find any justification for the DQ since pointing at targets is generally safe. 

[IVC]

28 minutes ago, jwhittin said:

What if this was a local match and the "Safe Direction" was clearly shown as only the side berm?  I would have to issue a DQ then. 

Yes, the same as if the person around the safety table stepped outside the marked boundary. It would be covered under the unsafe gun handling. 

[Schutzenmeister]

OK ... If we want to split hairs (and perhaps infinitives!)

 

The OP states this was BEFORE the match.  Given that, what rule(s) would YOU (generic you here, not aimed at any one person) rely upon?

[jwhittin]

4 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

OK ... If we want to split hairs (and perhaps infinitives!)

 

The OP states this was BEFORE the match.  Given that, what rule(s) would YOU (generic you here, not aimed at any one person) rely upon?

 

Great point!    "before the match started"   So match rules don't even apply. You are just a guest or member on the range. Does that make sense?   When does a match officially start?  At the shooters meeting?  I don't see anything in the rule book but may have missed it.

 

 

[dmshozer1]

I interesting views,

I was at the table when this happened. When he stopped and holstered, I asked him if he had done that before.

He said no and was having trouble with his dot and wanted to see how it appeared on a target.

He then asked if it was ok to do that. I told him I did not know. It appeared by his gear to be an experienced shooter.

I asked around but nobody knew for sure.

Interesting that the rule is only against it in a level ll or lll match.

I mean safety is safety.

Learn something every day.

[Schutzenmeister]

No ... The rule is against pointing the firearm in an unsafe direction.  The level of match doesn't matter.

 

L2&3 matches MUST show where the designated safe direction is.  I would insist my L1 matches follow the same protocol, for safety's sake!

[broadside72]

19 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

OK ... If we want to split hairs (and perhaps infinitives!)

 

The OP states this was BEFORE the match.  Given that, what rule(s) would YOU (generic you here, not aimed at any one person) rely upon?

 

I think it would be safe to assume "as soon as you are on the property for the USPSA sanctioned event you are attending". Otherwise you can show up before the posted match start time and do whatever you want up until that time. USPSA safe areas and gun handling rules wouldn't apply until then. 

 

We apply the rules under that criteria. We share a parking lot with the public/static lines and other action bays for classes, etc. and we only care about our shooters outside the action bays unless it is egregious behavior of non-competitors that we then deal with facility staff, not USPSA match staff. 

[jwhittin]

Interesting discussion.  

 

Before the match... I found this

6.5.3 A match, tournament or league will be deemed to have started on the first day that competitors (including those specified above) shoot for score and will be deemed to have ended when the results have been declared final by the Match Director

 

I agree, its when shooters arrive and are on the match berms. They could be on berms outside the match and then they would fall under the range rules.    

 

So OP's statement that it happened before the match started is not correct. Shooter was on a match bay.   So assuming this was a Level 1 match and as long as the shooter didn't point in a unsafe direction on the berm, I can't point to an "explicit" rule violation.  

 

 

Edited August 7, 2023 by jwhittin

[broadside72]

If you go solely by 6.5.3 then I can show up to any sanctioned match and put on my gear wherever I want and dry fire every stage with my gun in hand up to the first shot has occurred and not be DQ'd. And then I could handle my firearm after scores are finalized anywhere I want. 

 

I think I'll stick to the "on the property for a sanctioned event on event day(s)" kind of thought process. 

 

But it would be nice if there was some clarification from DNROI and maybe a rule update to 3.3 to cover when rules are applicable and when they are not. 

[MHicks]

I'll just say that there should be defined muzzle safe points at the safe table. I'm not saying that is currently the rule. It's not good to allow a shooter at the safe table to turn and point his gun downrange at a target on the stage then determine whether it was safe depending on whether a person was downrange or not.

[motosapiens]

18 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

If you go solely by 6.5.3 then I can show up to any sanctioned match and put on my gear wherever I want and dry fire every stage with my gun in hand up to the first shot has occurred and not be DQ'd. And then I could handle my firearm after scores are finalized anywhere I want. 

 

I think I'll stick to the "on the property for a sanctioned event on event day(s)" kind of thought process. 

 

But it would be nice if there was some clarification from DNROI and maybe a rule update to 3.3 to cover when rules are applicable and when they are not. 

it seems pretty clear. the match starts on match day. if you show up to the match on match day, you can dq before the match starts, but you can't dq the day before when no one is shooting for score yet.

[shred]

So you can show up the day before and dry-fire the stages with a gun in hand?  That would be pretty cool.

 

er, not. 

 

(assuming not a staff day, etc)

 

 

[jwhittin]

5 minutes ago, shred said:

So you can show up the day before and dry-fire the stages with a gun in hand? 

According to the rules, yes.  It is outside the official match.  You would be subject to the Range rules.  Other examples of "outside the official match" are designated live fire demo bays not part of the match property (match rules apply when you re-enter), and Load/Unload stations outside the match property.

[RJH]

I guess if you was going to try to walk the stages with your gun beforehand, you might not be able to get DQed from the match, but you could get trespassed from the range for the duration of the match. There's always ways to solve a problem LOL

[RJH]

Ps, in the op's case, no DQ

[Schutzenmeister]

Day before ... easy.  Declare the range(s) closed to all except the setup crew until a designated day/time.  Then, anyone on the range who doesn't belong can be DQd under 10.6.1 for Unsportsmanlike Conduct (cheating).  (And yes, I've seen that policy in place at Nationals in the past.)

[jwhittin]

Thanks for the wealth of information!  I'm working on becoming an RM and the detailed discussions are really helpful!

[Schutzenmeister]

Good luck ... Who's your RMI, if I may ask.