Single Stack Open

[sv38supershooter]

why not a single stack open division

we are going crazy with the single stack division(which we needed like a hole in the head)

wouldnt it be much easier to made l 10 the single stack div rather than waste 3 years on this class and dont even know if classifiers will count

lets hear on this maybe uspsa will finally wake up

[Larry White]

Because open is open, no such thing as limited open. Would be like AA fuel but on kerosene.-----Larry

[JFD]

I think they did wake up in this case.

This provisional SS division means that L-10 gets left alone for a little while longer. From my perspective, not screwing up L-10 is what is important.

[Alan Meek]

I would suggest that you research why Gary Stevens proposed this new division I think he has stated all the reasons why it makes sense. I am glad to see the new provisional division. You do not need to participate in it if you don't want to your choice, there are other choices out there to play in.

Alan

[mpolans]

FWIW, I miss the old days of single stack open. It'd be fun to go back to the days when mag changes were still common in open. Too bad it's not competitive these days.

[richardschennberg]

There are several matches, most notably the Single Stack Classic, that already shoot essentially by the Single Stack Division rules. In 2006 it will be the USPSA Single Stack Division national championship. It benefits USPSA and IPSC to have more affiliated matches. The match itself will be helped by being able to use USPSA classifications and should get more participation by being affiliated.

[Ron Ankeny]

Am I the only one who finds the initial post just a little bit...well never mind. Me thinks someone needs to read the forum guidelines.

[BrianH]

Thousands of members split when open went hi cap.

[mpolans]

IIRC, none of these are Open division...they're all limited/stock division.

There are several matches, most notably the Single Stack Classic, that already shoot essentially by the Single Stack Division rules. In 2006 it will be the USPSA Single Stack Division national championship. It benefits USPSA and IPSC to have more affiliated matches. The match itself will be helped by being able to use USPSA classifications and should get more participation by being affiliated.

[HI5-O]

Because open is open, no such thing as limited open. Would be like AA fuel but on kerosene.-----Larry

We shoot "limited" Open here all the time

barry

[Brundoggie]

Not quite, Barry. It O-10 division!

[dirtypool40]

Yeah, like in Kali and Kanada. Shoot matches there if you want, but don't drag me down into your hell.

As to "Leaving L10 alone" Wow, is that the wrong way to look at this. L10 and 10 round PROD, are appeasement divisions, and places to "hide". Bad bad bad. Drop L10 and make people compete again. Adding places to hide for a trophy is counterproductive.

Yes, there are good shooters shooting Prod and single stack in L10 because it's the way their gear can have an even playing field. There are great shooters in both divisions, but the VAST majority are hiding from sombody whether it's at a local match or a national championship.

Every weekend I see guys change divisions after sign up to get AWAY from the tough competition, instead of finding out what the tough guys are shooting and jumping in with them. I'm over it.

[Chuck Anderson]

I shoot production, not because I'm hiding from someone at local matches but because there is good competition in it. I don't compete against other Production guys, I compete agains the Open shooters. It's nice to come in 2nd or 3rd overall at a match with 70 or 80 people. As far as competition on a National level we have Dave to keep our egos in check. We certainly don't shoot it for prizes. The only matches I won anything worth mentioning last year were matches I didn't shoot Prodution. I finished 4th at Nationals and for the first time since I've been shooting the Nationals I didn't win something that I had to clear with and FFL holder.

And finally I shoot Production because it's what I carry, day in and day out. I got tired of trying to split my training time between my work gun and my play gun. My shooting has gotten much better since I started shooting Production and I intend to stay. Maybe one of these days I'll break out my limited gun again. I'll probably shoot worse overall than I do with the Glock but at least I won't be hiding.

[Kimberkid]

Wow, DP, thats a pretty cold thing to say man. I wouldnt have expected that outta you. I shoot whatever division I do based on how I feel when I wake up in the morning. I aint hiding from anyone, cuz I dont have anything to prove. This is a game, remember guys?? Remember, this is fun. Do we really go out every weekend to prove we are better than each other? Every division has its own perks, thats why we are lucky to have different ones, so we can experience different styles. I think it is nice to get away from Open/Limited sometimes and see what it is like to actually do a reload in a match. You of all people should understand that. I'm not saying that hiding doesnt happen, but I think it is WAY less prominent than some think. Besides, who does it hurt? I'd be honored if someone hid from me.

I find it comical when people act like this all matters. Its a game we play for fun, no match score has ever changed any of our lives dramatically.

[Jake Di Vita]

I really agree with DP.

And Kimberkid is right....it is not the match that changes our lives, it is the days and nights before the match that does.

As to the subject of SS Open....I think there are too many divisions already.

[Kimberkid]

Jake, I agree with you, but that wasnt really what I was trying to say. What I meant was that this thing we do, doesnt change anything. It makes our lives happier and more fullfilled, but we aint curing cancer and we aint feeding the children. Its a buncha hillbillies shooting guns and going "woo hoo". So calling out "hiders" should be of little consequence. If someone wants to hide, let em, they aint hurting anyone. One could argue they are just "gaming" to the extreme. What is gaming but putting yourself in a better position to win?

[SRT Driver]

As to "Leaving L10 alone" Wow, is that the wrong way to look at this. L10 and 10 round PROD, are appeasement divisions, and places to "hide". Bad bad bad. Drop L10 and make people compete again. Adding places to hide for a trophy is counterproductive.

Yes, there are good shooters shooting Prod and single stack in L10 because it's the way their gear can have an even playing field. There are great shooters in both divisions, but the VAST majority are hiding from sombody whether it's at a local match or a national championship.

DP,

Maybe so..in some cases! I don't think Dave Sevigny hides from anyone! And I certainly don't either. In my area, the toughest competition is in Prod with, at least, 2 GM's in regular attendance and a few members of the Prod Super squad who shoot local matches. This is where the competition is..in my area.

Most of us shoot Production (and L10 to a point) because it is more difficult in many ways than Open or Limited. Cheaper also.

But I am in agreement that we have enough divisions already.

[bgary]

My two cents:

-- we already have too many divisions. I've said elsewhere, I think we should have three divisions: Open, Limited and Production. *within* those divisions we could have all kinds of flexibility to recognize "categories"... such as single-stack, or reduced-capacity (eg, Open-10, Limited-10 and Production-10 would be *subsets* of Opn, Lim and Prod division results). But... we already have 6 divisions, and adding a 7th (O-10), an 8th (Open Revolver) and more makes no sense to me.

Every weekend I see guys change divisions after sign up to get AWAY from the tough competition, instead of finding out what the tough guys are shooting and jumping in with them.

I've worked stats and registration tables at a fair number of big matches, and I'd have to agree. It happens a *lot*, especially when there is "stuff on the line" (cash, prizes, etc). It happens less at local club matches, probably in part because there is no "stuff" at the average club match here in the northwest, but also probably because it is a small enough community that asking the question "who else is registered in that division" and then changing is an embarrassment you would never live down

$.02

Bruce

[eric nielsen]

Wouldn’t it be interesting if instead of the USPSA Nationals being Limited/Revolver/Production and Open/L10, it was Open/Limited/L10 (race gun?) and 1911 SS/Production/Revolver (carry gun?), with 1911 SS/Production/Revolver requiring the Production holster/ammo carrier rules for all "divisions", 8 round limits for 1911 SS, 10 for Production, 6 for Revolver, no more than 6 required shots from a shooting position, and no more than 24 rounds per stage?

Without thinking about it too much, I like the idea in general.

A few random thoughts... L10 kinda got "hung on" to Limited class, because most didn't feel a SS could compete against hi-caps, under the prevailing C'sOF typically seen today. So they gave them a class and their "own" game to play. SS's were also deemed unfair in Production class, so the only place our "founding guns" could compete was in L10. To me, however, the idea of shooting a SS with a modern-day full race holster just seems silly. Especially in today's C'sOF.

Most SS (not L10) competitors are purists. And I could be off base, but I don't think most SS shooters would mind if it was Production class holster rules, 8 rounds in the gun, and 8 rounds max (or maybe 6) from a position. It just seems to make sense. And it also seems to make sense if the original guns that birthed the sport initially had a sensible place to compete today.

I also think the 9 round rule is silly. I remember The Great One telling me that once, at a Single Stack Classic match, there was 9 round, steel speed shoot!! Talk about encouraging the equipment race. He said because of that he built a .40 for that match. Now that Rob is shooting a .40 (at any match really), what do you think you'll have to shoot?

So my point of that is that a sport that hopes to survive in prinicpal and in application should never leave certain principles up to the discretion of match directors. Because even the most enthusiastic supporters of a particular principle will at times act as if they don't have a clue.

While of course many embrace the "it's all about Open" idea, there are also many who enjoy the challenge of seeing how they stand up to the fancy stuff with their more basic setup. Before USPSA separated the scoring system for Open and Limited (which I hated them for doing that BTW), the only thing I looked at on the results page was my percentage compared to Open class.

Yea, there may be some of that going on between L10 and Limited class, but I don't think it's as prevalent because many shoot L10 because they don't want to compete in Limited class. (I compteted in Limited class because I didn't like road Open guns went down.)

So from my particularly narrow-minded point of view (principles, not manufacturers), it makes sense to have Open-style matches, where you'd have Open and Limited competing on the same C'sOF with the same holsters/mag pouches. Then have Stock-style matches, where the founding guns (SS's) could compete amongst themselves with sensible hosters and magazine capacities reflecting the useful capacity of those guns (8 rds in the gun); shooting along side (although in a different class) current production-type guns reflecting their typical mag capacity (10 rds in the gun) - both with the same holster/mag pouch rules, on C'sOF with a 6 or 8 round max per position rule.

I am advocating getting rid of the current L10 class completely? Well, I guess so, because I always thought shooting a SS in an Open-class style holster was silly, especially because you had to use a 10 rd mag to be competitive, (if you wanted to shoot a .45).

SS/45's are here to stay, but they've lost their home in USPSA. And by the way, I haven't competed with a SS 45 in so long I can't remember, but that doesn't mean those pistols don't hold a place in my heart, and in the soul of our sport itself.

be

I liked the part about before the split scoring...

[Bruce]

When they change the rules so that the shooters shoot in pairs, at each other instead of at paper targets, then I will certainly duck a bunch (make that all) of the competition. Thankfully, it is not there and heck, I just shoot to have fun. Some take it far more seriously, and good for them, it makes the sport tick. It's all good.

Some of the prettiest 1911's are the old comp'd single stacks. Have been tempted to shoot one in open just for the fun of it. Maybe next summer I will.

[JFD]

I never saw L-10 as a place to hide. What a bunch of total BS! I do know of one shooter who has started "hiding" in L-10 for big matches, but I could honestly care less and don't see why anyone else should care.

L-10 is a MUCH cheaper way to race with the gun you already have (damn near every gun is "legal" in L-10). When I first started I had no desire at all to spend $100 on a single magazine. However I've never been interested in competing with carry gear, so the option to use a race rig was very attractive. "Limited Lite" is a good description, and that's the draw of the division.

I've upset myself enough, so I'll stop now.

[SteveZ]

As to "Leaving L10 alone" Wow, is that the wrong way to look at this. L10 and 10 round PROD, are appeasement divisions, and places to "hide". Bad bad bad. Drop L10 and make people compete again. Adding places to hide for a trophy is counterproductive.

I don't know about where you're shooting at...but L10 is anything but a place to hide here in the NorthWest. There is a very large group of people (very talented too) that like to shoot single stack guns and do so very well in L10. I've only seen one instance locally where a GM shooter decided to switch from Limited for the day and shot L10...and he did it to shoot with/against his buddies...not because he was trying to duck competition but because he was trying to find it....Limited division was apparently "lite" that day and he wanted to shoot against better shooters.

Imagine that!

Edited December 16, 2005 by SteveZ

[Chuck D]

" A Place to Hide"...

If you want to get down to the heart of the matter, research the reasons for the creation of L10 and Production (suggestion, speak to Rob Boudrie. I'm certain he'd be more than willing to give you a history lesson DP).

You do yourself a tremendous disservice by speaking in such generalities ("VAST majority") but somehow I believe you already know this. Maybe L10 and Production Division participants are not hiding but avoiding people that make comments such as yours?

Edited December 19, 2005 by Chuck D

[Ben Stoeger]

Yeah, like in Kali and Kanada. Shoot matches there if you want, but don't drag me down into your hell.

As to "Leaving L10 alone" Wow, is that the wrong way to look at this. L10 and 10 round PROD, are appeasement divisions, and places to "hide". Bad bad bad. Drop L10 and make people compete again.

Well DP, for as much of a jerk as you sound like, you are right. Production is here to appease people.... that want to shoot production guns. If Production goes away, so do I.

Later,

Ben

[Sam]

In my opinion, we do have too many divisions. I would like for everyone not shooting in Open or Limited, to shoot in the same "Practical Division" and get some Glock vs. CZ vs. 1911 action going on. That ought to get the corporate sponsors excited! If magazine capacity and power factor are equal, the best shooter is going to win regardless of which platform he or she chooses, simply because the best shooter will totally master that handgun. Maybe 150 Power Factor and 10 round mags? Nines load up, .45s load down, everybody shoots 150PF.