Production Div. & Mag Release Length?

[RIIID]

Rich do you have the factory "modded" releases in-stock, or do I send you mine?

(I have a Bar-sto release I can stick in the gun till it gets back if that the case. )

I would prefer your shorter stock looking release than the Bar-sto, it sticks WAY out, to far IMHO.

I agree we need more concrete rules in Production.... as long as there is any vagueness, we will always have this argument over what legal and whats not. Just spell it out and be done with it.

I would need your release to do it.

Rich

[Flexmoney]

21. Allowed modifications are very limited and include the following:

- 21.1 No weighted attachments allowed to magazine.

- 21.2 Front sights may be trimmed, fiber optics inserted, adjusted and/or have sight black applied. Sights must be of the notch and post type.

- 21.3 Replacement barrels allowed provided barrel length is same as original factory standard. Heavy barrels and/or barrel sleeves not allowed.

- 21.4 (throating, trigger work, etc.) is allowed.

- 21.5 External modifications other than sights not allowed.

- 21.6 Aftermarket grips which match the profile of the OFM standard for the approved handgun and/or the application of grip tape or rubber sleeves is permitted. Modifications to grips, other than previously mentioned, not allowed, such as grooves cut to reach mag

release or size reduction.

22. A competitor who fails to comply with any of the requirements above will

be subject to Rule 6.2.5.1

The only internal mods that are allowed are "action work to enhance reliability". If a mag release had it's internal catch modified so that it held the magazine higher or lower, I could see that as falling under "enhanced reliability".

But, as soon as the work show up on the outside of the gun, that is an "external modification".

That's my opinion and that would be my call. Sorry. I'm not looking to tick anybody off, I just can't see how I could call it any other way.

(I'm going to sign off this thread, unless somebody asks me a direct question.)

[diehli]

Here's a direct question, Flex: What is your feeling on modified Glock trigger safeties (such as those from Vanek)? Seems to me that it's gonna fall into the same category as Rich's mag release, by your interpretation.

Edited December 15, 2005 by 300lbGorilla

[Kingman]

If I shot production I think I would file a protest if someone beat me using one. Just for the matter of cheaters suck.

[Steve Moneypenny]

Rules are many times reactive in their inception instead of pro-active.

As for the magazine release that is a quarter of an inch.. quite a lot on a magazine release!

I interpret the same rules as flex does, the factory does not produce a part that does this on a mass produced gun.

The other question is. Are those of you shooting with a part that "might" be illegal willing to lose a match because of it?

[RIIID]

On average the release as it comes from the factory sticks out of the frame at 0.150. With the mod it it sticks out 0.230 on one side and 0.070 on the other. It doesn't stick out a 1/4". We are talking about 0.070, the frame isn't modified and the exterior of the release isn't modified. It is modified on the part either way that is internal.

If USPSA would give us a set of rules that are bullet proof it's going to cost shooters some money. The ruling that you can switch parts from another model gun is wrong.

If your gun doesn't come with larger base pads you shouldn't be able to use them.

If your gun doesn't come with an extended release you shouldn't be able to use one.

If your trigger job changes the position of the trigger you can't use it.

If your gun doesn't come with a weighted guide rod you shouldn't be able to use one.

I could list alot more.

The way the gun is purchased from the factory/dealer should be the only way you can use it in Production. This division is so messed up from the top down it will cost the shooters money to correct it. I for one would be willing to help rewrite the rules. New rules mean nothing if they are not inforced. Even the IPSC Production rules are not bullet proof.

Rich

[Flexmoney]

Here's a direct question, Flex: What is your feeling on modified Glock trigger safeties (such as those from Vanek)? Seems to me that it's gonna fall into the same category as Rich's mag release, by your interpretation.

Cullen,

I'm not sure what all goes into that trigger job. I am guessing that you are talking about

the safety in the trigger of the Glock... needing to be trimmed so that it can engage the frame...because of some decreased forward trigger travel...resulting from the action work?

Is that a measurable external modification? If so, then the rule says no external mods.

I think we have a solid basis of rules. But, we also have allowed a lot of grey area to creep in...for whatever reason.

[sfinney]

You know, I get the bug to shoot Production about once a year, setup a gun, get ready to shoot, and EVERY time, there is an argument over what is legal or not, even though the rules AS WRITTEN don't prohibit most of these mods..... it's all up to Amidon interpretaion, etc.

Glocks - Are buried Bomars legal in USPSA - answer yes (even though that looks like an extrenal mod to me!) - Vanek triggers are now illegal in certain configs as well evidently

Beretta - speedbump triggers are no-no

CZ SP01 - unfair gun made of unobtainium that will instantly make you a GM - legal, illegal, legal, protested, legal..... where will it end

XD - mag release confusion, buried bomars, SA vs DA argument ugh.

The simple answer is shoot them all box stock, and not worry about it. Reality is that people want to fix up their gun even in Production, and in the same spirit of "freestyle", do everything to their gun that is not expressly prohibited (and some things that are, intentionally or not)

I'm tired of it, until something changes. No more Production for me. Anyone want to buy an XD 9 Tactical?

[Chuck Anderson]

The problem with running box stock guns is where to draw the line on the gun. IPSC has basically taken the view that they want to make manufacturers make better guns. That's where you get guns like the Tanfoglio Sport( can't remember the name for sure now)? Gun is a limited gun in 9mm with a DA first shot. Everything else is the same. Most of the ones I've seen even have screw holes in the frame for an optic. So this gun that is box stock factory has all these enhanced features. But then you get a stock Springfield XD that doesn't have any of these features. Sure you can legally add most of the important ones, and normally very cheap, a new set of sights, some Tru-Grip and you're good to go. Just those mods go a long way towards leveling the playing field. If you stick with just stock guns you create a division where whatever manufacturer is will ing to play can dominate. I think that Production should be much more even across the board. By allowing some limited mods, pretty much any gun can compete.

However I still haven't heard anyone tell my why the Vanek trigger should be illegal. Either come up with a basis for it or stop confusing people. I know several people that have shot them. The only time I know of that it was found illegal was when the pre travel got a bit out of whack and the trigger safety wouldn't activate.

[shred]

I've got issues with both the IPSC and USPSA PD rules. Trigger pull limits would help USPSA a ton and mag cap limits would help IPSC a ton, just for a start. But I do think they should look 'showroom stock' in any case.

Hmm.. that might be entertaining.. "it's got to be within 3 oz of factory weight and no external measurement can be more than 1/8" beyond stock dimensions. Go to town."

[SRT Driver]

Trigger pull weight..don't get me started on that especially after what the NRA did to AP. If the trigger is safe, use it.

IMHO, if the mfgr makes it..fine. Put it on and play. No aftermarket stuff.

Modifying stock parts..why not? It's still a stock part just fitted better.

If it does not change the outward appearance..fine. (ie..slide lightening, radical frame changes etc)

We could come very close to over legislation. To the point that you have to PROVE your gun is legal before you can shoot. That's BS.

[Chuck Anderson]

The issue with trigger pull weight is it is biased against the type of gun. For example. IPSC has a 5 pound trigger pull requirement. Great if you have a DA/SA gun. First pull is 6-7 pounds, the rest are 1 1/2 pound. Big advantage over a 600 round match. If you use a striker fired gun or a DAO all pulls are 5+ pounds. I think USPSA actually has the more logical trigger pull rules.

[shred]

The issue with trigger pull weight is it is biased against the type of gun. For example. IPSC has a 5 pound trigger pull requirement. Great if you have a DA/SA gun. First pull is 6-7 pounds, the rest are 1 1/2 pound. Big advantage over a 600 round match. If you use a striker fired gun or a DAO all pulls are 5+ pounds. I think USPSA actually has the more logical trigger pull rules.

Except that 1-lb-always custom triggered XD's & glocks are legal. You'll have a really hard time getting a true DA/SA DA down below 6 lbs DA and that first shot off the draw is veeery important sometimes. No problem if PD is supposed to be the 'Glock & XD division', but I'd rather allow for more diversity. Pick what you like-- always the same pull, or one hard one and a bunch more easy ones. They can make the limit 3 or 4 lbs for all I care, but I think there ought to be a little competitive equality there.

This is also why I like the USPSA mag capacity rules-- a lot more kinds of guns can play instead of whatever the latest wonder-nine is.

Anyway, this is way off the mag release question..

[ampleworks]

No problem if PD is supposed to be the 'Glock & XD division', but I'd rather allow for more diversity.

You play with your toys, I'll play with mine. If you want to shoot your DAO 226 or 92FS, that's just fine and dandy...I'll keep my XD. The fact remains Rich's mag release is the same exact part as what comes in a factory gun, its modified internally. I'll fight this to the bone and my XD still has a stock release.

Its not even worth mentioning about how illegal the Bar-Sto mag release is.

If a part that is changed in some way that it is not visible from the outside, or available to the general public, then its time to do away with this custom shop BS

'Nuff said.

[Steve Moneypenny]

I'm taking my ball and going home!

[Flyin40]

Wow and I was actually thinking of shooting some Production this yr. Not sure now.

Flyin40

[Chuck Anderson]

Come out and shoot, there really isn't this much drama at matches. It only happens on the internet. Nobody says this stuff in person.

[Flyin40]

Come out and shoot, there really isn't this much drama at matches. It only happens on the internet. Nobody says this stuff in person.

LOL, if that were only true. Production division is where you hear all the @#%#^ing at matches. I hear tons of it. There might of only been 5 matches out of 30+ I shot this yr where I didn't hear some sort of complaining, whining etc. I'll probably give it a try for a match or two. At least get a classification in it.

Flyin40

[eerw]

Come out and shoot, there really isn't this much drama at matches. It only happens on the internet. Nobody says this stuff in person.

LOL, if that were only true. Production division is where you hear all the @#%#^ing at matches. I hear tons of it. There might of only been 5 matches out of 30+ I shot this yr where I didn't hear some sort of complaining, whining etc. I'll probably give it a try for a match or two. At least get a classification in it.

Flyin40

wow...that's too bad..I hear hardly and griping about it around here...most of us just enjoy the challenge of shooting minor and having to do a buttload of reloads...

[LPatterson]

I don't plan to shoot any major next year any way so I am going to send my XD to Rich because so many people think it is cheating that I have to have it.

I never drive the speed limit either.

[peashooter]

I haven't heard any ##(*^&*%^$& about the PD rules. I shoot a Beretta Elite and have tweeked it to the maximum allowed. Most every PD gun has had something done to it. SO what. Thats part of the fun.

I believe the rules are pretty clear. What's not to understand? Internal vs external, OFM style grips and keep it to no more than 2 oz over factory weight. Pretty easy.

I have done a ton of work on my Beretta and it is sweeeeeet, 100% within the rules and gives up nothing to any other legal gun.

[Kingman]

Production has become minor limited 10. At this point make it stock follow ipsc rules and dq people that break them.

It will solve problems.

[oddjob]

In our area (Nor. Calif) the only discussions I've heard about Production was the holster & mag pouch locations. The mag pouches seem to mysteriously "slide" forward of the hip bone. No one complains to a M.D. though. In the end its always the better shooter that wins (ain't me).

[Steve Moneypenny]

Hey folks I got to see one of these in person today, I really never realized HOW tiny the XD magazine release is. This does give a fairly signifigant difference in the LOOK of the mag release.. but in the function of it. i don't see enough of an advantage to even have it done.

Flyin 40.. you chicken get out here and give me some competition with the production gun i tripple dawg dare you! In fact the match i shot tonight at Sim-Trainer in Dayton was almost ALL production shooters... atleast 3 masters in attendance!

[Bob Hostetter]

We make a mag release button that is noticeable longer then the one that comes from Croita (?). We sell them to Springfield and they install them in some of the new guns they sell, both directly from the factory and thru the Custom Shop. Based on this our belief is it a factory part and if its a factory part its legal for Production division.

As a personal note I shot Production since day one up until the 2004 Area 2, and would still be shooting Production except for the rules. They way they are written allows way to much fudging. I know its the shooter that wins the match but if you have the knowledge, or the money, or the connections (or all three), you can get a production gun that is light years better then what the average guy can get, and I believe that is not what Production was supposed to be about.

Rewriting the rules to create a true Production division would be tough and I am glad I'm not the guy tasked with it, but it still needs to be done otherwise it should be renamed "Non single action limited 10.

Hey, since we now are going to have Limited 8, maybe we should just change Production to Limited 10............