"We Play Games" and failure to move penalty

[Bosshoss]

 "significant advantage" and "subjective"(or wording that eludes to subjective) IMO should be removed from rulebook as it is different for every RO and every club in every state. They leave it up to RO's to decide if it is a significate advantage on field courses and then tell them that the same thing on a classifier is not a advantage. 

BTW I personally think that in the classifier above that it IS a significant advantage staying in box B and not moving to box C as you are doing a standing reload instead of a moving reload and more importantly you are doing a strong hand to weak hand transfer while standing still instead of doing it while moving.

Simplify the rules, if you are are faulting a fault line(one foot or two) or not following the written stage briefing then one penalty per shot. Same for everyone at every club, everywhere.

Yeah it will suck when you make a mistake but you had the same opportunity as everyone else to shoot it correctly.  

NROI got this one wrong IMO.

 

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, rtkwe said:

The previous boxes are still A designated shooting area and I don't think there are any rule provisions for invalidation or changing shooting areas as part of the WSB.

 

Also I think you're talking about 10.2.1.2 here? That says after leaving the shooting area which our hypothetical competitor hasn't done. Box B is definitely at the start and to my knowledge remains a shooting area even after the WSB tells you to leave it.

it is not the 'designated' shooting area for those targets. it's no different than standing in between the 2 shooting areas.

 

Not that it matters that you are wrong, because NROI has decided we are going to do this wrong for the time being. The important part is that it is uniform.

[ddc]

22 hours ago, motosapiens said:

i... NROI has decided we are going to do this wrong for the time being. ...

 

I'm curious if NROI has ever made a ruling and then come back some time later and either reversed it or revised it in some fashion.

 

[GigG]

On 12/7/2022 at 1:19 PM, ddc said:

I'm curious if NROI has ever made a ruling and then come back some time later and either reversed it or revised it in some fashion.

 

 

Yes but I can't for the life of me remember what it was.  

[pjb45]

On 12/2/2022 at 11:08 AM, waktasz said:

It would be easier if the rulebook did it. 

For example, being completely out of the shooting area, as in this case. 

Oh wait, that's already in the rulebook, but I guess they don't care because it's a classifier? 

WoonHoo. Excellent- Nice logic. They were not in the defined shooting area when engaging the targets. 

[broadside72]

3 hours ago, pjb45 said:

WoonHoo. Excellent- Nice logic. They were not in the defined shooting area when engaging the targets. 

There is no rule for being outside the "defined shooting area", just being outside "fault lines" (10.2.1) and the WSB forcing you to move during the string does not magically make the other shooting box (aka a set of fault lines) disappear. 

 

I do think that classifiers should list the penalties considered to be significant advantage. If the setups need to be identical for the classifiers to mean anything across venues, then the application of the rules should be identical as well and not subject to any one RO's discretion. 

[RJH]

So, as luck would have it we actually shot this today. After seeing it on the ground, the one penalty only ruling is even stupider than it was originally.

 

If you stay in the center box, the center target is probably equidistant from the center box to the right hand box which negates the idea that moving up gives you an advantage because you're two yards closer, because it disregards the fact that you're now laterally 2 yards further. Also when you stay in the center box the left hand Target is now much closer which is a huge advantage. And quite possibly the biggest advantage of all is that you're fairly square to all the targets while standing in the center box, yet while standing in the right hand box that's and shooting across to the left hand targets you start shooting at them at a fairly hard angle.

 

Should 100% be a per shot penalty for not moving. Nroi really needs to look at this ruling, because they got it wrong

[Dirty_J]

5 minutes ago, RJH said:

So, as luck would have it we actually shot this today. After seeing it on the ground, the one penalty only ruling is even stupider than it was originally.

 

If you stay in the center box, the center target is probably equidistant from the center box to the right hand box which negates the idea that moving up gives you an advantage because you're two yards closer, because it disregards the fact that you're now laterally 2 yards further. Also when you stay in the center box the left hand Target is now much closer which is a huge advantage. And quite possibly the biggest advantage of all is that you're fairly square to all the targets while standing in the center box, yet while standing in the right hand box that's and shooting across to the left hand targets you start shooting at them at a fairly hard angle.

 

Should 100% be a per shot penalty for not moving. Nroi really needs to look at this ruling, because they got it wrong

NROI often gets it wrong. They are consistently inconsistent and that’s all you’re ever going to get with the leadership they have at this moment. 

[RJH]

And it still blows my mind that they're completely disregarding 10.2.1.2

 

 

 

[Thomas H]

On 12/14/2022 at 4:53 PM, broadside72 said:

 

I do think that classifiers should list the penalties considered to be significant advantage. If the setups need to be identical for the classifiers to mean anything across venues, then the application of the rules should be identical as well and not subject to any one RO's discretion. 

 

Amidst all the other opinion-based complaining all over the place, I do completely agree with the above in bold.

 

For classifiers, if a particular likely-to-occur action is a significant advantage, it would be nice to have that stated.  Sure, no WSB can cover the truly amazing breadth of ridiculous mistakes shooters can make---but if certain things are more likely to happen, mentioning that something is a significant advantage would be useful.

 

Rather like at a major, when the RM looks at a stage prior to anyone shooting it, and discusses with the CRO what is likely to be a significant advantage and what isn't, if there are questions.

[broadside72]

20 hours ago, RJH said:

And it still blows my mind that they're completely disregarding 10.2.1.2

How does that rule even apply here? If you don't move, you are still in a shooting area. It's not the designated area per the WSB, but the area where you start does not magically no longer exist because the WSB says to move to another shooting area.

[RJH]

1 minute ago, broadside72 said:

How does that rule even apply here? If you don't move, you are still in a shooting area. It's not the designated area per the WSB, but the area where you start does not magically no longer exist because the WSB says to move to another shooting area.

 

Since the WSB literally says shoot the targets weak hand from only box c, for purposes of that string of fire and the weak hand portion of it, boxes A and B are no longer shooting areas and might as well not exist. 

 

In other words box c is absolutely the only shooting area for the weak hand portion of string two according to the wsb. So if you're not in box c while shooting the weak hand portion of string two you are wholly out of the shooting area

[broadside72]

1 minute ago, RJH said:

 

Since the WSB literally says shoot the targets weak hand from only box c, for purposes of that string of fire and the weak hand portion of it, boxes A and B are no longer shooting areas and might as well not exist. 

 

In other words box c is absolutely the only shooting area for the weak hand portion of string two according to the wsb. So if you're not in box c while shooting the weak hand portion of string two you are wholly out of the shooting area

So you saying that if I am supposed to shoot array A from box A and array B from box B, all within one string, I can't get any penalties for reengaging array A to make up shots because array A no longer exists and I just get the best X hits?

[RJH]

2 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

So you saying that if I am supposed to shoot array A from box A and array B from box B, all within one string, I can't get any penalties for reengaging array A to make up shots because array A no longer exists and I just get the best X hits

 

I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at here. There's only one at Target array in this classifier. If you're saying you shoot extra shots in area B there's already penalties for that in Virginia account. If you're just coming up with some crazy  hypothetical, I'm not going to chase that down a rabbit hole.

 

I'm only reading the WSB for the classifier we're discussing in this thread, the rules as written in the rule book, and giving you an experience from actually shooting the classifier yesterday. Nroi was wrong on at least two accounts that I've already stated in their ruling on this 

[broadside72]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

 

I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at here. There's only one at Target array in this classifier. If you're saying you shoot extra shots in area B there's already penalties for that in Virginia account. If you're just coming up with some crazy  hypothetical, I'm not going to chase that down a rabbit hole.

 

I'm only reading the WSB for the classifier we're discussing in this thread, the rules as written in the rule book, and giving you an experience from actually shooting the classifier yesterday. Nroi was wrong on at least two accounts that I've already stated in their ruling on this 

Yes a hypothetical.

Just because the WSB says you need to perform an action during a string, that does not mean that the physical objects within the stage disappear. There is no rule to support your previous comment that the initial shooting area does not exist because you are outside the "designated shooting area" for the string. So 10.2.1.2 can't apply if the person is in the starting box and does not move. 

[RJH]

36 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

Yes a hypothetical.

Just because the WSB says you need to perform an action during a string, that does not mean that the physical objects within the stage disappear. There is no rule to support your previous comment that the initial shooting area does not exist because you are outside the "designated shooting area" for the string. So 10.2.1.2 can't apply if the person is in the starting box and does not move. 

String 2: On the audible start signal, from shooting box B, engage each target with only one round each freestyle, perform a mandatory reload, and engage each target with only one round each from shooting box C, weak hand only 

 

 

It looks very clear in this snippet from the WSB that the designated shooting area after the reload of string 2 is  box c 

 

If you're not in box c, you are most certainly not in the designated shooting area for that portion of the string. 

 

I guess the only way to actually disregard 10.2.1.2 would be when you look at 10.2.1.3. and you could say that since a person never entered the shooting area 10.2.1.2 doesn't count in that instance.

 

However by staying in box B you are still gaining a significant advantage.  Because you are in fact closer to the array on the left, the same distance as the array in the middle and only slightly further than the array on the right. All while having more full-facing targets.

 

Then there's the other issue of the ambiguity at the end of nroi's "clarification" leaving things up to the match director. And our range master said you were going to get one per shot because he saw it as a significant advantage, which it is 

 

 

Edit to add: the glossary  defines a significant advantage as having both feet outside of the shooting area. 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by RJH

[broadside72]

If box B is there in the stage then it is still a shooting area after you are supposed to move to box C. There is no rule in the book about not being in a specific shooting area. Please show me where "designated shooting area" is defined or referenced anywhere in the rulebook. 

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, broadside72 said:

If box B is there in the stage then it is still a shooting area after you are supposed to move to box C. There is no rule in the book about not being in a specific shooting area. Please show me where "designated shooting area" is defined or referenced anywhere in the rulebook. 

using your (imho silly) logic, you could run to a shooting area for a different stage that had a better view of the targets, and argue that you were still 'in the shooting area'.

 

if you're only allowed to shoot the targets from 1 place, then that is the shooting area. the other ones don't exist for that string.

[broadside72]

55 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

using your (imho silly) logic, you could run to a shooting area for a different stage that had a better view of the targets, and argue that you were still 'in the shooting area'.

 

if you're only allowed to shoot the targets from 1 place, then that is the shooting area. the other ones don't exist for that string.

 

 

Reach much? 

 

Quote

2.2.1.2 A 'shooting area' is defined as a surface inside shooting boxes, fault lines, walls, or any other barrier. Shooting boxes and fault lines must be fixed to the surface and may not be less than the minimum height required by rule 2.2.1.1. Fault lines are considered to be part of the shooting area. Objects completely outside the shooting area, regardless of whether they contact the shooting box, fault lines, walls, or any other barrier, are not part of the shooting area, except as specified in 10.2.1. Course designers may specify planks, timbers, low platforms, etc., as the entire shooting area, provided they are clearly marked, are at least 1.5" high, and stable.

 

This definition of a shooting area does not say anything about "designated" or "specified" per the WSB. In this classifier, Box B meets the definition per 2.2.1.2 and it is as simple as that. The penalty portion in 10.2.1 and it's subsections mention nothing about shooting areas not specified for use in the WSB instructions. 

 

[motosapiens]

15 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

 

 

Reach much? 

 

 

This definition of a shooting area does not say anything about "designated" or "specified" per the WSB. In this classifier, Box B meets the definition per 2.2.1.2 and it is as simple as that. The penalty portion in 10.2.1 and it's subsections mention nothing about shooting areas not specified for use in the WSB instructions. 

 

I'm not the one reaching. I'm pointing out how far *you* are reaching.

 

If it's not 'designated' or 'specified', you can use other shooting areas on the range (particularly in a bay with 2 stages). 

 

Not that it really matters, because we have all agreed we are just going to score this stage wrong until further notice.

[RJH]

11 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

 

Not that it really matters, because we have all agreed we are just going to score this stage wrong until further notice.

 

 

Not at one of my local clubs at least. Range Master says per shot, as per the rule book definition of "significant advantage," and the fact that the actual shooting challenge is easier from box B, and the fact that movement is eliminated saving time.

 

I guess if somebody comes there and shoots that classifier and wants to argue with him they can, but we all just shot at the correct way it didn't worry about it. With the added reasoning that everyone shooting actually happened to agree with him, so it was a non-issue. 

 

 

 

 

[Dirty_J]

18 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

 

Not at one of my local clubs at least. Range Master says per shot, as per the rule book definition of "significant advantage," and the fact that the actual shooting challenge is easier from box B, and the fact that movement is eliminated saving time.

 

I guess if somebody comes there and shoots that classifier and wants to argue with him they can, but we all just shot at the correct way it didn't worry about it. With the added reasoning that everyone shooting actually happened to agree with him, so it was a non-issue. 

 

 

 

 

Well. Your RM is directly contradicting Mr. NROI. So… careful.  

[RJH]

Just now, Dirty_J said:

Well. Your RM is directly contradicting Mr. NROI. So… careful.  

 

No, we're going to have to disagree there. My RM is following the rule book, if nroi doesn't actually like it, they have the power to change the rule book. Kind of like if you don't like the weight limit for single stack and you happen to be dnroi, you can get that changed. Since the rule book can be changed anytime nroi wants at this point, if they want to come up with a ruling that contradicts the rule book they have the power to change the rulebook to fit their ruling. Until then following the rule book has written seems to be the correct course

[Dirty_J]

Two things: 

 

1) since this is a classifier and there seems to be a specific mathematical advantage to taking this penalty… they just need to put it in the WSB. End the debate.

 

2) if this weren’t a classifier stage… and just a regular match stage… the “correct” answer doesn’t matter nearly as much as the penalty being applied consistently across the match. 
 

But it’s super dumb that a penalty on a 5 year old classifier is still being debated.