Different starting position ‘spot’ for PCC

[Gunjack]

Saw this on a stage description at a local match, is this legal?

 

START POSITION:
Pistol: Standing in shooting box & facing downrange. Wrist below belt. Handgun is LOADED and HOLSTERED.

Pistol Caliber Carbine: Standing WITH FEET ON FOOTMARKS COMPLETELY OUTSIDE OF THE SHOOTING AREA & facing downrange. PCC muzzle oriented downrange. PCC is LOADED & Stock is touching belt.

[Rookie]

Why might you think that it is not legal?

[Gunjack]

If legal, could you not place the foot marks, let say 20 feet away for PCC? Seems like there would be se rues for this ….

[Joe4d]

why ?  There is a big section on what is a legal stage.. Stage is legal or not legal. PCC only competes against PCC, why does it matter where another division starts ?

[Gunjack]

16 minutes ago, Rookie said:

Why might you think that it is not legal?

Where the foot marks are placed, how far away from the box, distances feet are apart, etc …. Lots of grey here, rules?

[Gunjack]

1 minute ago, Joe4d said:

why ?  There is a big section on what is a legal stage.. Stage is legal or not legal. PCC only competes against PCC, why does it matter where another division starts ?

So does Open, can you use different starts for them vs let say single stack?

[Gunjack]

Technically for this stage, there is shooting box all shooters that have to start from anywhere in that box except for PCC, doesn’t seem like thats legal or it hasn’t been addressed. If the start position was directly in front of wall, then the PCC would have to adjust to that position, got that part but if there is rule for the above start and the many variables, not able to locate that.

[motosapiens]

It's certainly legal. PCC already has a different starting position from every pistol division. I suspect if people start making pcc start 20' away, then we'll see a rule about it, but if people just make pcc step into the box while pistols have to draw from a holster, no one but the worst of whiners will whine about it.

[Racinready300ex]

11 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

It's certainly legal. PCC already has a different starting position from every pistol division. I suspect if people start making pcc start 20' away, then we'll see a rule about it, but if people just make pcc step into the box while pistols have to draw from a holster, no one but the worst of whiners will whine about it.

 

That would be a pretty reasonable way to add a challenge to PCC really. 

 

I've seen PCC starts with wrists above shoulders, or only one hand on the rifle. Sometimes you can start with it on your shoulder aimed at a target, but there aren't any targets you can see from that position. lol those are great. 

[Gunjack]

4 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

It's certainly legal. PCC already has a different starting position from every pistol division. I suspect if people start making pcc start 20' away, then we'll see a rule about it, but if people just make pcc step into the box while pistols have to draw from a holster, no one but the worst of whiners will whine about it.

Start position (wrist above, hands on barrel, etc) yes in agreement but your confusing position with location, a completely different spot on the stage … if what your saying is true, then the same could be applied to all and any division…. Where’s the rule that say you can do this? An open competitor most days so not trying to defend PCC but this seems to be a stretch and not defendable less someone can show a specific rule.

[driver8M3]

NROI wrote a blog post about this last year.

 

https://nroi.org/stage-design/start-position-equity/#more-2511

[Gunjack]

1 minute ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

That would be a pretty reasonable way to add a challenge to PCC really. 

 

I've seen PCC starts with wrists above shoulders, or only one hand on the rifle. Sometimes you can start with it on your shoulder aimed at a target, but there aren't any targets you can see from that position. lol those are great. 

Position yes, but location 

[Gunjack]

2 minutes ago, driver8M3 said:

NROI wrote a blog post about this last year.

 

https://nroi.org/stage-design/start-position-equity/#more-2511

Thanks for this link, couldn’t find anything in rule book but apparently it’s been addressed.

 

From above link:

We don’t have a rule that spells out what can and can’t be done in relation to start position between PCC and the handgun divisions, but before PCC we didn’t have Open competitors start at a different start position than Single Stack competitors because we wanted a fair match for everyone. Yes, PCC is different, and it requires a separate start position, but it needs to be as close to the handgun start position as possible.

[Joe4d]

56 minutes ago, Gunjack said:

So does Open, can you use different starts for them vs let say single stack?

Sure you can and it used to be done every so often.  
Some divisions have a box rule,,, wasnt unheard of to use  gun in the box as a start position  as a way to check compliance and really fubar someone who is riding the edge.. 
Open obviously didnt need to fit in the box.  So had a different start,,,, On the box, beside the box,,,  etc

[Gunjack]

16 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

Sure you can and it used to be done every so often.  
Some divisions have a box rule,,, wasnt unheard of to use  gun in the box as a start position  as a way to check compliance and really fubar someone who is riding the edge.. 
Open obviously didnt need to fit in the box.  So had a different start,,,, On the box, beside the box,,,  etc

https://nroi.org/stage-design/start-position-equity/#more-2511

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, Gunjack said:

Start position (wrist above, hands on barrel, etc) yes in agreement but your confusing position with location, a completely different spot on the stage … if what your saying is true, then the same could be applied to all and any division…. Where’s the rule that say you can do this? An open competitor most days so not trying to defend PCC but this seems to be a stretch and not defendable less someone can show a specific rule.

 

What I was saying is I think the example of having PCC step into the shooting area vs starting inside is totally reasonable. I'd do that as a PCC shooter and not think twice about it. There is some increased risk here that someone gets started in the wrong position.

 

Now start going crazy and have me doing silly stuff to slow down my time and I'll stop shooting your match. I wont just not bring my PCC, I'll not come all together.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

3 hours ago, Gunjack said:

Saw this on a stage description at a local match, is this legal?

 

START POSITION:
Pistol: Standing in shooting box & facing downrange. Wrist below belt. Handgun is LOADED and HOLSTERED.

Pistol Caliber Carbine: Standing WITH FEET ON FOOTMARKS COMPLETELY OUTSIDE OF THE SHOOTING AREA & facing downrange. PCC muzzle oriented downrange. PCC is LOADED & Stock is touching belt.

 

Yes.  It's legal

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 hour ago, Gunjack said:

Thanks for this link, couldn’t find anything in rule book but apparently it’s been addressed.

 

From above link:

We don’t have a rule that spells out what can and can’t be done in relation to start position between PCC and the handgun divisions, but before PCC we didn’t have Open competitors start at a different start position than Single Stack competitors because we wanted a fair match for everyone. Yes, PCC is different, and it requires a separate start position, but it needs to be as close to the handgun start position as possible.

 

That's a suggestion from NROI, not a rule.  An MD or RM can ignore it if it wants.

[Thomas H]

4 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

That's a suggestion from NROI, not a rule.  An MD or RM can ignore it if it wants.

 

MDs can indeed make completely different start positions for PCC, along with setting up stages that deliberately make it harder for PCCs, in addition to verbally denigrating people who choose to shoot PCC.  All are legal.

 

And that's how matches reduce the number of people who want to shoot their match.

[Sarge]

6 hours ago, Gunjack said:

Start position (wrist above, hands on barrel, etc) yes in agreement but your confusing position with location, a completely different spot on the stage

From the rulebook:

Start position

The location, shooting position and stance of the competitor as

prescribed by the Written Stage Briefing prior to issuance of the

“start signal”. The start position MUST be c

learly defined by the

Written Stage Briefing.

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, Thomas H said:

 

MDs can indeed make completely different start positions for PCC, along with setting up stages that deliberately make it harder for PCCs, in addition to verbally denigrating people who choose to shoot PCC.  All are legal.

 

And that's how matches reduce the number of people who want to shoot their match.

reducing the number of pcc shooters perhaps..... as if thats a bad thing...

[Johnny_Chimpo]

2 hours ago, Thomas H said:

 

MDs can indeed make completely different start positions for PCC, along with setting up stages that deliberately make it harder for PCCs, in addition to verbally denigrating people who choose to shoot PCC.  All are legal.

 

And that's how matches reduce the number of people PCC shooters who want to shoot their match.

 

I didn't say it was smart.  Just legal.

 

You know what they say.......just because you can doesn't mean you should.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

reducing the number of pcc shooters perhaps..... as if thats a bad thing...

 

I knew I could count on you.

[Gunjack]

10 hours ago, Sarge said:

From the rulebook:

Start position

The location, shooting position and stance of the competitor as

prescribed by the Written Stage Briefing prior to issuance of the

“start signal”. The start position MUST be c

learly defined by the

Written Stage Briefing.

 The topic is to have one division start in a completely different location than all other divisions, so your suggesting this would this be ok?

 

START POSITION:
All divisions EXCEPT OPEN (next month Carry Optics, then PCC the month after): Standing ANYWHERE in shooting box & facing downrange. Wrist below belt. Handgun or PCC is LOADED and HOLSTERED.

OPEN DIVISION ONLY: Standing WITH FEET ON FOOTMARKS COMPLETELY OUTSIDE OF THE SHOOTING AREA, facing up range with both hands in pockets with shoe laces untied.

 

Pretty sure that is not the intent, but if so count many out if that circus becomes normalize.

[Sarge]

10 minutes ago, Gunjack said:

 The topic is to have one division start in a completely different location than all other divisions, so your suggesting this would this be ok?

 

START POSITION:
All divisions EXCEPT OPEN (next month Carry Optics, then PCC the month after): Standing ANYWHERE in shooting box & facing downrange. Wrist below belt. Handgun or PCC is LOADED and HOLSTERED.

OPEN DIVISION ONLY: Standing WITH FEET ON FOOTMARKS COMPLETELY OUTSIDE OF THE SHOOTING AREA, facing up range with both hands in pockets with shoe laces untied.

 

Pretty sure that is not the intent, but if so count many out if that circus becomes normalize.

If one wants to be an ass it’s legal except for the shoe lace as that would be a safety issue. My point was LOCATION is part of the start position