wsb wording to hold "briefcase" prop

[johnbu]

Making a stage with 3 separate shooting areas. Left, center, right.

 

Thoughts / suggestions on the wording around the requirement of holding the prop? Hold in strong hand on one side, weak hand for the opposite for all shots on that side.  Also, is that PCC legit,  forcing them to hold it and shoot?

[motosapiens]

some pcc shooters will whine. too bad. you can't force them to shoot 1 handed, but you can force them to hold something while doing so and let them figure out whether it's b better to shoot 1-handed or to try to use the hand holding the prop to also hold the gun.

 

However, I think it may end up dumb to try to get people to shoot both strong and weak hand on the same stage. might be too much silly and unrealistic prop manipulation.

[GigG]

Sounds like a really bad way to get around the whole "Freestyle" requirements of the sport while also creating a safety issue.

[Boomstick303]

9 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

some pcc shooters will whine. too bad. you can't force them to shoot 1 handed, but you can force them to hold something while doing so and let them figure out whether it's b better to shoot 1-handed or to try to use the hand holding the prop to also hold the gun.

 

This would be incorrect according to USPSA rules.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Boomstick303

[George Jones]

Moving between boxes, trying to switch gun hand and prop hand, and maybe having to reload?

Bad idea!

[johnbu]

15 hours ago, George Jones said:

Moving between boxes, trying to switch gun hand and prop hand, and maybe having to reload?

Bad idea!

They wont have to reload holding the prop. Even revo as there is only 6 shots with longest 30ft.  Center area has a barrel to set the prop and they shoot it freestyle

 

15 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

This would be incorrect according to USPSA rules.

 

 

 

 

1.1.5.4 does NOT apply. 1 1.5.5 DOES apply. They are required to hold a prop. They CAN brace with the prop, back of hand or hold both prop and grip firearm. As they wish.

[motosapiens]

18 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

This would be incorrect according to USPSA rules.

 

 

 

 

I think I am actually correct. You might review the rules regarding what SHO and WHO mean for pcc. See 8.2.4.1, and also the glossary definitions of strong hand and weak hand.

Edited August 17, 2022 by motosapiens

[Boomstick303]

3 hours ago, johnbu said:

1.1.5.4 does NOT apply.

 

How does it not apply to PCCs?  That was the question correct? 1.1.5.4 wording "Stage procedures may never require the PCC to be fired using only one hand."  Your question, "Also, is that PCC legit,  forcing them to hold it and shoot?"

 

There was a similar stage at Nationals last year the PCC shooter could choose to shoot one handed where they had to transport an ammo can from the front of the stage to the end of the stage.  You could not make the shooter shoot one handed.  There was an option for the PCC shooter to set the ammo (object) down and shoot, they could also hold the ammo can while operating with both hands as you indicated.  But I would think you could not require it, per 1.1.5.4.

 

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

sounds like you don’t understand the rules regarding what SHO and WHO mean for pcc

 

I completely understand SHO and WHO in regards to PCC.  I do not understand you comment.  As for the course of fire having three shooting areas I would think it would be safe to assume it is a large course of fire, so how does the 6 shot rule in 1.1.5.4 not apply.  Not looking for an argument here just trying to understand what is correct and what is not.

 

[motosapiens]

Just now, Boomstick303 said:

 

How does it not apply to PCCs?  That was the question correct? 1.1.5.4 wording "Stage procedures may never require the PCC to be fired using only one hand."  Your question, "Also, is that PCC legit,  forcing them to hold it and shoot?"

 

There was a similar stage at Nationals last year the PCC shooter could choose to shoot one handed where they had to transport an ammo can from the front of the stage to the end of the stage.  You could not make the shooter shoot one handed.  There was an option for the PCC shooter to set the ammo (object) down and shoot, they could also hold the ammo can while operating with both hands as you indicated.  But I would think you could not require it, per 1.1.5.4.

 

 

I completely understand SHO and WHO in regards to PCC.  I do not understand you comment.  As for the course of fire having three shooting areas I would think it would be safe to assume it is a large course of fire, so how does the 6 shot rule in 1.1.5.4 not apply.  Not looking for an argument here just trying to understand what is correct and what is not.

 

I guess i'm not sure what you are saying. you are quoting rules and situations that seem to me to agree 100% with what I am saying. which is that while you can't force pcc shooters to shoot 1-handed, you can force them to hold something while shooting. Some of them may hold the object and shoot 1-handed, some may choose to hold the object and still use both hands on the gun. That's ok.

 

Regarding the 6 shots, that refers to stipulating the last 6 shots, which is a different situation than using a prop to encourage 1-handed shooting. It is perfectly legal to require someone to hold a prop for the entire stage. However if you tell them 'you must shoot 1-handed', you can only do that for the last 6 shots.

[Boomstick303]

16 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

Some of them may hold the object and shoot 1-handed, some may choose to hold the object and still use both hands on the gun. That's ok.

 

That was my point.  I missed the part in your first comment that said you cannot force one handed shooting.  My mistake.  

 

Maybe I also misunderstood the OP in that I thought he would want PCC shooters to shoot using one hand only.

 

It could be a case of me misunderstanding the stage briefs intent.

 

My point about high lighting the 6 shots was so the OP understood forcing WHO or SHO is defined in the rules.

Edited August 17, 2022 by Boomstick303

[johnbu]

21 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

Maybe I also misunderstood the OP in that I thought he would want PCC shooters to shoot using one hand only.

 

 

to clarify, the stage intent (as requested by the MD) is to require holding a prop, which  highly encourages one handed shooting. Unlike mandated "SHO/WHO", competitors ARE allowed to hold both prop (1" diameter round handle), firearm, steady by resting firearm on prop and / or steady by resting firearm on the arm/hand holding the prop. the requirement is to hold the prop while firing in the outside areas.

[Boomstick303]

16 minutes ago, johnbu said:

to clarify, the stage intent (as requested by the MD) is to require holding a prop,

 

You cannot require the PCC shooters to hold the prop.  If they choose to they can.  The option to set the briefcase down has to be an option for PCC.  At least that is the way I understand 1.1.5.4.   I could be wrong, but I do not think I am. 

[motosapiens]

5 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

You cannot require the PCC shooters to hold the prop.  If they choose to they can.  The option to set the briefcase down has to be an option for PCC.  At least that is the way I understand 1.1.5.4.   I could be wrong, but I do not think I am. 

i disagree and wonder aloud how you came to that weird conclusion.

 

however i do think its a good idea to allow folks to set the prop down somewhere out of the way, where it will take far longer, in case they feel unsafe trying to shoot with the prop.

[Boomstick303]

19 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

i disagree and wonder aloud how you came to that weird conclusion.

 

What is the exact intention of rule 1.1.5.4?  If its not for this why have it?  In my eyes if the shooter thinks they can shoot a rifle while holding something safely there are rules in place to take care of it if they do not.  If they feel they cannot shoot a rifle in this manner this rule ensures they cannot be made to do so.

 

Like I said I could be wrong.

 

You can still create a stage that penalizes those who do not shoot while holding the briefcase in the act of shooting.  This was the case with the ammo can at Nationals last year.  You were penalized in time as a PCC or pistol shooter if you chose to shot while not carrying the ammo can.  As  you indicated in your last post.

 

 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Boomstick303

[MikeBurgess]

On WSBs for holding objects, you are going to want to be very specific with your wording on what you consider to be "holding" 

 

Is between you knees "holding" is hanging on your mag pouch "holding" is putting the handle in your mouth "holding"  is stuffed in your jersey "holding" 

 

if you wan the shooter to do something specific you need to be very specific on what that is.

 

 

[ima45dv8]

Shorthand version is that you may COMPEL a shooter to shooter one-handed through the use of props and/or stage design, but you may not COMMAND a shooter to do so. Design the stage to force the action you desire.

 

1.1.5.4 is the very limited exception.

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

What is the exact intention of rule 1.1.5.4? 

 

 

1.1.5.4 refers to 'stipulating' the use of SHO/WHO. This means telling them in the WSB that they have to do it that way. It has nothing to do with holding props. That's why there is a separate rule like 1.1.5.5 which says when you do use props, you have to have freestyle in between. 

 

If you use props, you can make someone hold the prop for all shots in the whole stage, not just the last 6. If you simply tell them to shoot that way without a prop involved, you can only do it for the last 6 shots.

[Boomstick303]

3 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

1.1.5.4

 

1.1.5.4 Uses the verbiage "Stage Procedures", meaning any stage procedure cannot force PCC shooters to shoot 1 handed.  Not just the procedure discussed in 1.1.5.4.

 

 

[motosapiens]

1 minute ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

1.1.5.4 Uses the verbiage "Stage Procedures", meaning any stage procedure cannot force PCC shooters to shoot 1 handed.  Not just the procedure discussed in 1.1.5.4.

 

 

It is possible that Troy would agree with your interpretation, however it doesn't really matter. If you can hold the prop and still put a hand on the gun, you're not being forced to shoot 1-handed. It's actually pretty hard to come up with a prop that entirely prevents you from placing your other hand on the gun, but it's easy to come up with one that makes doing so not worth the trouble.

 

I do it all the time with a small 10 lb dumbell. Small kettle-bells also work well and are more durable than purses/ammo cans/briefcases, etc...

[Boomstick303]

4 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

It is possible that Troy would agree with your interpretation, however it doesn't really matter

 

It would probably help to have some input from NROI on this.  

[motosapiens]

22 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

It would probably help to have some input from NROI on this.  

pretty sure i've worked matches where he was the RM and you had to hold something while shooting. For sure NROI has approved such stages for level II matches we've done. I think if you had a prop that made it impossible to get both hands on the gun, it might be worth getting clarification, but if you can hold the prop and still put both hands on the gun (even awkwardly), then it seems pretty clear-cut that it's no problem, and I can't imagine why anyone would think it was a concern.

[Southpaw]

On 8/16/2022 at 12:59 PM, johnbu said:

Thoughts / suggestions on the wording around the requirement of holding the prop?

 

My suggestion would be to get rid of the prop 

[broadside72]

Avoid the problems and range lawyers like me. Just say the prop has to go from A to B and must be at B before the last shot or something like that. If someone wants to carry it in the hand, between the knees, throw it, hang it from a bungee, or put it down between shots so be it. It is freestyle right? 

[motosapiens]

51 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

Avoid the problems and range lawyers like me. Just say the prop has to go from A to B and must be at B before the last shot or something like that. If someone wants to carry it in the hand, between the knees, throw it, hang it from a bungee, or put it down between shots so be it. It is freestyle right? 

this is a sensible suggestion. i word it so the prop has to be at point B before the last target is engaged, or it's a per-shot procedural. That discourages people from taking a single procedural to try to game it.

 

another variant I've used successfully is that the prop must be either carried in the hand, or located on barrel B for all shots taken in shooting area B. and of course barrel B is 3-4 steps further than you would otherwise need to go.

[thermobollocks]

1 hour ago, broadside72 said:

Avoid the problems and range lawyers like me. Just say the prop has to go from A to B and must be at B before the last shot or something like that. If someone wants to carry it in the hand, between the knees, throw it, hang it from a bungee, or put it down between shots so be it. It is freestyle right? 

 

This is the way I like to use, and also things like pull ropes on ports can be neat provided your club can put them together. It takes a little creative stage design to make shooters think about whether doing a shuttle run is worth it, or whether strong-arming is worth it.

 

Though, now, I want to see some PCC shooters do the Rhodesian wall, just because.