Changing to backup gun during match

[ima45dv8]

It would be a different type of sight, so maybe that's what he meant.
 

Still, if that's all the competitor had (irons), I would allow it.

[JodiH]

In USPSA, if you only have a production gun as a backup to your CO gun and the CO gun/sight broke, yes we would allow you to switch guns and move you to Open minor.

 

We have a couple posts on the NROI Blog about this if you want to read more:

https://nroi.org/rules-insights/when-the-gun-breaks-the-rm-must-be-called/

https://nroi.org/rules-qa/gun-swap-q-a/

[GrumpyOne]

32 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said:

It would be a different type of sight, so maybe that's what he meant.
 

Still, if that's all the competitor had (irons), I would allow it.

 

5.1.7 Competitor must use the same firearm and type of sights for all courses of fire in a match. 

 

The type of sights would be different. While a Production gun is 100% legal in Open, that rule does state "same type". Semantics, splitting hairs, I know, but....by the letter of that rule, if your main Open gun goes down, you would need an optic gun to replace it, I.E. a carry optics gun.

 

As for allowing it, I would as well. We are there to shoot and let people shoot, not to find ways to keep them from shooting. 

 

There have been other rules changed for lesser reasons...it's just wording. 

[JodiH]

13 hours ago, GrumpyOne said:

The type of sights would be different. While a Production gun is 100% legal in Open, that rule does state "same type". Semantics, splitting hairs, I know, but....by the letter of that rule, if your main Open gun goes down, you would need an optic gun to replace it, I.E. a carry optics gun.

 

It isn't violating the the rule (or wording of the rule) to allow a competitor to switch to an iron sighted gun if their Open gun breaks.  You have to read past the first sentence of 5.1.7:

 

5.1.7 Competitors must use the same firearm and type of sights for all courses of fire in a match. However, in the event that a competitor’s original firearm and/or sights become unserviceable or unsafe during a match, the competitor must, before using a substitute firearm and/or sights, seek permission from the Range Master who may approve the substitution provided he is satisfied:

 

The 'however' allows for exceptions to the first sentence and 5.1.7.1-5.1.7.3 outline the replacement criteria.  Now, using an iron sighted gun as a replacement in CO is not allowed because CO rules require a slide mounted optic.  But for Open, an iron sighted gun still meets the division requirements and is not a competitive advantage and is within the rules.

 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

On 4/21/2022 at 7:41 PM, GrumpyOne said:

Well, technically, changing from an open gun with an optic to a production gun with iron sights violates 5.1.7

 

True dat

[Bakerjd]

Some of yall need to retake an RO class. They were pretty clear on this exact subject durring mine a few weeks ago. And @JodiHis 100% correct. Backup gun either meets division rules for what your original gun was or you move to open minor. 

[Cuz]

With regard to a firearm becoming “unserviceable”, my backup CO Glock gun is the same as my primary CO Glock except that it has a 0.5 lb stronger striker spring.  If I were to experience a couple of light strikes during a stage, I know that between stages I could swap the striker spring assembly and continue the match. 
but would the light strikes make the gun unserviceable enough to be allowed to swap guns?  At our local matches I know the answer is yes. 
But at a bigger match would I be required to swap parts to fix my primary gun before continuing?

 

 

[terrydoc]

From an IPSC perspective it would be preferable to fix the primary if possible first.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

26 minutes ago, terrydoc said:

From an IPSC perspective it would be preferable to fix the primary if possible first.

 

I'm very curious about why you think so.  There is nothing easier than dumping the broken gun in a bag and reaching in for another one.

[motosapiens]

On 4/22/2022 at 8:42 AM, JodiH said:

 

It isn't violating the the rule (or wording of the rule) to allow a competitor to switch to an iron sighted gun if their Open gun breaks.  You have to read past the first sentence of 5.1.7:

 

5.1.7 Competitors must use the same firearm and type of sights for all courses of fire in a match. However, in the event that a competitor’s original firearm and/or sights become unserviceable or unsafe during a match, the competitor must, before using a substitute firearm and/or sights, seek permission from the Range Master who may approve the substitution provided he is satisfied:

 

The 'however' allows for exceptions to the first sentence and 5.1.7.1-5.1.7.3 outline the replacement criteria.  Now, using an iron sighted gun as a replacement in CO is not allowed because CO rules require a slide mounted optic.  But for Open, an iron sighted gun still meets the division requirements and is not a competitive advantage and is within the rules.

 

 

as usual, well stated, and I know you meant to mention this, but if i understand correctly, the CO shooter with a broken gun and no dot on his backup should also be able to move to open minor without issues and finish the match and have fun with his buddies.

[motosapiens]

11 hours ago, Cuz said:

With regard to a firearm becoming “unserviceable”, my backup CO Glock gun is the same as my primary CO Glock except that it has a 0.5 lb stronger striker spring.  If I were to experience a couple of light strikes during a stage, I know that between stages I could swap the striker spring assembly and continue the match. 
but would the light strikes make the gun unserviceable enough to be allowed to swap guns?  At our local matches I know the answer is yes. 
But at a bigger match would I be required to swap parts to fix my primary gun before continuing?

 

 

speaking as someone who has only ever acted as RM at a major match one (1) time, my thought is that if the guns are otherwise identical, I wouldn't give it a second thought. The intent of this rule is not to annoy people and make their lives unhappy for no reason, it's to prevent well-heeled shooters from bringing a golf-bag full of different pistols for different stage types and switching frequently between them. 

 

But I would make fun of you for starting a major match with a gun that you *know* has a weak striker spring.

[Cuz]

15 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

But I would make fun of you for starting a major match with a gun that you *know* has a weak striker spring.

You would be right to do so, and if the rest of the squad didn’t join in as well, I would know I was in the wrong squad. 
:)
 

[terrydoc]

Because it's not really broken is it, if you have the unserviceable part replace it. That's just my opinion though

[Cuz]

7 hours ago, terrydoc said:

Because it's not really broken is it, if you have the unserviceable part replace it. That's just my opinion though

If you are referring to my question about the worn striker spring, would I have to replace just the striker springs, or could I swap the whole firing pin assembly, so I don’t risk losing any of those pesky striker spring cups?  Then again, could I just swap the whole top end slide assemblies?  
I guess the point of my question was more to help me understand where the line is. I think it’s more about preventing someone from swapping guns to gain an advantage. 
with regard to an identical primary and backup gun, how many parts can you swap before one becomes the other?  All but the actual frame I suppose. I was only asking because I find it easier to bring a second gun to a match than a bunch of spare parts. If something starts to go wrong with one, I don’t want to troubleshoot it at a match, I’d rather just swap guns, and then worry about what went wrong after I got home. 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

7 hours ago, terrydoc said:

Because it's not really broken is it, if you have the unserviceable part replace it. That's just my opinion though

 

Well if a machine doesn't work, it's broken regardless of what exactly broke in it........

 

Even if I had every part that normally breaks for my pistol in my kit, it's still easier to dump the broken pistol in the bag and grab an identical one that works.  Not only is it easier, it's both faster and less stressful particularly during a level II match or higher.

 

Ya ever had a CZ trigger return spring go flying off during installation when it slips out of the needlenose pliers at the wrong time?  Good luck finding it in the dirt/gravel of the safe area........

 

If it happens during a local level I match, I might fix it or I might just DNF and go home.  Depends on how I'm feeling that day.

[Bagellord]

9 hours ago, terrydoc said:

Because it's not really broken is it, if you have the unserviceable part replace it. That's just my opinion though

You can't assume that every shooter has the spare parts, tools, or knowledge to conduct repairs on the range. Do most shooters know how to work on their guns, even under less than ideal conditions? Sure. But typically a gun swap results in the least disruption for the shooter, their squad, and the match flow.

[terrydoc]

You did notice my comment was my opinion? First step is to try and fix the original if you can't then you speak to the RM and he will decide, I would hazard a guess if you haven't tried to get it running He will more than likely get you to work out what's wrong and if you CAN'T fix it He would let you swap.  

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

23 minutes ago, terrydoc said:

You did notice my comment was my opinion? First step is to try and fix the original if you can't then you speak to the RM and he will decide, I would hazard a guess if you haven't tried to get it running He will more than likely get you to work out what's wrong and if you CAN'T fix it He would let you swap.  

It’s up to the RMs discretion.    But I’d wager most RMs aren’t dicks and that if your main gun is giving you issues and you have a backup that meets division requirements and it isn’t a significant advantage to switch to said backup then they would let that person switch.    I don’t see why if all of those things outlined above are met why an RM would make someone attempt to fix their gun first. 

[motosapiens]

4 hours ago, terrydoc said:

You did notice my comment was my opinion? First step is to try and fix the original if you can't then you speak to the RM and he will decide, I would hazard a guess if you haven't tried to get it running He will more than likely get you to work out what's wrong and if you CAN'T fix it He would let you swap.  

i have had to switch 4 times now at major matches. no rm (including dnroi) has ever expressed any interest in anyone diagnosing or fixing anything, nor have i ever heard such a thing in my RO or CRO classes, or any of the nationals ive worked where i’ve been asked to call the rm to approve a gun change.  all they have ever cared about is making sure both guns get chronoed (if the original is still safe to fire).

[Bagellord]

11 hours ago, motosapiens said:

i have had to switch 4 times now at major matches. no rm (including dnroi) has ever expressed any interest in anyone diagnosing or fixing anything, nor have i ever heard such a thing in my RO or CRO classes, or any of the nationals ive worked where i’ve been asked to call the rm to approve a gun change.  all they have ever cared about is making sure both guns get chronoed (if the original is still safe to fire).

 

That has been my experience as well, both as a competitor swapping guns, seeing it on my squad, and as match staff. The RM's haven't really cared why, just that the guns met the division requirements, there was no advantage, and that rules regarding chrono were followed. 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

On 4/26/2022 at 6:11 PM, terrydoc said:

I would hazard a guess if you haven't tried to get it running He will more than likely get you to work out what's wrong and if you CAN'T fix it He would let you swap.  

 

That's what we call here in the states being a dick

[terrydoc]

Yeah well of course no one in USPSA has ever tried to game a match have they?

[Johnny_Chimpo]

7 hours ago, terrydoc said:

Yeah well of course no one in USPSA has ever tried to game a match have they?

 

That's already been addressed more than once here.